376 – Patrick Schwarz of Highland Park, IL CEO of Creative Culture Consulting, Author & Advocate For Inclusive Education

Transcript:

Tom Couch: Special thanks to Amgen for sponsoring the Special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast. Committed to unlocking the potential of biology for patients suffering from serious illnesses by discovering, developing, manufacturing and delivering innovative human therapeutics. Discover more about Amgen’s mission at Amgen.com.

Patrick Schwarz: Oftentimes, if you can tap into somebody’s gifts and talents, they are definitely ways and means to strategize how you help with their struggle areas or their disability areas. So that’s an example of turning disability into possibility.

Tom Couch: That’s our guest this week, Patrick Schwarz, an author, a motivational speaker, CEO of Creative Culture Consulting, and an outspoken advocate for inclusive education for people of all abilities. Patrick has important thoughts to share and we’ll hear them on this Special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast. Now say hello to the founder of the Special Fathers Network and host of the Dad to Dad Podcast, David Hirsch.

David Hirsch: Hi, I’m David Hirsch, host of the Special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast. Two short messages. First, I’d like to invite you to attend the sixth annual SFN Dads virtual conference taking place via Zoom on Saturday, May 10, at 8:00am Central Time. We have a great roster of speakers and there will be plenty of time for breakouts to meet like minded dads who are committed to their children and self improvement. Secondly, the Special Fathers Network Mastermind Group experience is the most comprehensive program the 21st Century Dads foundation offers. Dads raising children with special needs, meet virtually on a weekly basis and form meaningful relationships while sharing weekly wins, discussing books and sharing heartfelt challenges. One of the highlights of the year is attending an in person weekend retreat scheduled this year from September 5th to the 7th. As you think about the year ahead, I invite you to join one of the existing or soon to be formed SFN Mastermind Groups and join a group of like-minded dads to become the best version of yourself. It might just transform your life like it’s done for so many others. For more information please go to the Show Notes or Simply go to 21stCenturyDads.org.

Tom Couch: Now let’s listen in to this week’s conversation between Patrick Schwarz and David Hirsch.

David Hirsch: I’m thrilled to be talking today with Patrick Schwarz of Highland Park, Illinois who’s the CEO of Creative Culture Consulting, a public speaker, author of numerous books, and an outspoken advocate for inclusive education for people of all abilities. Patrick, thank you. Thank you for taking the time to do a podcast interview for the Special Fathers Network.

Patrick Schwarz: Thank you David. It’s great to be here.

David Hirsch: Let’s start with some background. Where did you grow up? Tell me something about your family.

Patrick Schwarz: I grew up in Madison, Wisconsin, the capital. My dad worked for the safety department of the university, and it was fun because his office was right next to the Memorial Union when I was growing up. And we got to test the police boats for the safety department on Lake Mendota. And if we got there by 7 in the morning, that was a fun childhood.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, thank you for mentioning that. I have a very fond memory of Lake Mendona. I did an Ironman triathlon. The first one back in – it must have been 2009, and it was ideal swimming conditions there in that lake. It was just amazing. And, now I know why people love Madison, Wisconsin, as much as they do. Right. It’s like the centerpiece. Right. That lake is.

Patrick Schwarz: It’s great. And my niece’s husband is actually participating in an upcoming Ironman triathlon in the same place, so that’s exciting.

David Hirsch: Yeah. It’s known as Ironman, Wisconsin. That’s what they call it.

Patrick Schwarz: That is what he’s doing.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well, they say once an Ironman, always an iron man, but I certainly don’t feel as fit as I used to.

Patrick Schwarz: You did it. That’s what’s important.

David Hirsch: Yeah. So you mentioned your dad worked in the Department of Safety for the university. And I’m, wondering, what type of relationship did you have with your dad?

Patrick Schwarz: My dad was a great guy. He definitely was the outdoors, sporty type of person. The sad thing about my dad is he passed away when he was a teenager. When I was a teenager. Excuse me. And that was due to lung cancer, so we had him for a short time. But he was really great as a father.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. Very sorry to hear that he passed away at such a young age. And, you know, there’s different reasons for father absence. And, death of a dad at a relatively young age, like you just described, is certainly one of them. Any important takeaways, lessons learned? Even though he wasn’t there, you know, during

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David Hirsch: your adult life, but, during your formative years.

Patrick Schwarz: There are things that I hear him say often. So one thing is everything in moderation, which has actually proved to be an important thing. He was just a kind person to others. And if I ever feel like I’m not going that direction for some reason, I do hear his voice saying, be kind.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, it’s great that you can reflect on, that type of influence that he’s had. I’m sort of curious to know what, if any, relationship you had with your grandfathers?

Patrick Schwarz: Grandfathers. One passed away before I was born. That was my mother’s dad. He was an Irish man, so his name was Basil McGuine. He was strict. He didn’t feel that women should work or drive. And he had four daughters, so some of them listened to him and some didn’t. And I’m sad that I didn’t get to meet him. My other grandfather was a jokester, so his name was Tony Schwarz. And he did a lot of pranks on us that were fun. So I just remember him also being an outdoors type of person like my dad. And he would smoke big cigars and pipes. He would also hunt rattlesnakes.

David Hirsch: Oh my God.

Patrick Schwarz: So I have one of his rattlesnake rattles in my desk drawer.

David Hirsch: That is pretty wild. Thanks for sharing. So, any other men that come to mind, men who might have played an influential role in the absence of your dad who passed away at such a young age or maybe during your professional career?

Patrick Schwarz: Yeah, absolutely. I had a mentor when I was going to University of Wisconsin who was very instrumental in supporting me and doing what I do today. His name is Lou Brown. Unfortunately we lost Lou a couple of years ago. He was a pioneer in special education. So with Madison Metropolitan Public Schools, he would secure federal grants and they were really big forward thinking things at the time. So the first one that I worked with him, everybody can learn, everybody can work was the second one. The third one is everybody can have social relationships. And, and he was very instrumental. I met him when I did an intro class. I heard you didn’t have to take tests, rather you would work in schools. I took that course and I found it very thought provoking. He called me up at the end of the class. We would have supervisors, for our experiences. And he said, I want you to be in my teacher training program. And I said, well, I’m going to be an OT. He said, when do you get to take those classes? And said, when I’m a junior. And he said, I’m going to give you an independent study and put you in the best school in Madison. And an independent study for a sophomore sounded pretty good and I ended up really loving it. And so he was influential in, I would say, steering me, into the special education teaching profession. My plans were occupational therapy, which are definitely a related area to special education. I work with fantastic occupational therapists. I think the match has been great though. I’m really glad I’m in the field of special education.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, you look back on relationships like you just described with Lou Brown, this mentor, professor, icon, if you want to call it, in the world of, special ed. And you can only connect the dots looking backwards. Right. And say, you know, if it wasn’t for that connection, you know, where would I be today? Right. Certainly wouldn’t be in the exact same place and maybe not even in the same field. So, I think of people like that about, Lou Brown as being the angels in our lives. Right. They’ve sort of influenced us in a more profound way than most.

Patrick Schwarz: Thank you. And that is true. And I appreciate your thinking around that.

David Hirsch: So, my recollection was from an educational perspective. you have a BS and MS and a PhD from UW Madison.

Patrick Schwarz: That is correct.

David Hirsch: You’re like a triple badger.

Patrick Schwarz: Yes. Maybe I get a special award for that. And a big part of it is, after I started teaching, Lou talked me into being part of his master’s program. I think a big part of it is he wanted people that were in schools who were educators to be doing the methods part. He would teach the intro course and recruit people for his teacher training program. And then after my master’s, he said, you need to become Dr. Patrick. And I said, Lou, you want me to keep teaching your methods courses? And he said, no, you need to be Dr. Patrick. And I

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Patrick Schwarz: said, actually, it’s a great match and I would be honored to be part of that.

David Hirsch: That’s fabulous. So, from an educational and career perspective, did you go straight through BS, MS, PhD or were there some breaks or points in time where you actually worked and, then went back to school?

Patrick Schwarz: I think what was good is after I got my bachelor’s is he didn’t bother me for a year. He let me actually experience that hardest first year of teaching. And I think that was good because I could really focus on that. Then for my master’s, that was a three year period. It was all evening courses. I was full time as a teacher for Madison Public School District. Then for my PhD, I actually continued to teach the whole time. when I was working on my PhD and went down that final year to part time, I was also Lou Brown’s project assistant. So I was publishing things and helping with his research, et cetera.

David Hirsch: Did anybody ever joke with you that you were Lou Brown Jr. Or something like that? Mini me?

Patrick Schwarz: I think there was the term Brownie.

David Hirsch: Okay, well, the term Brown noser comes to mind, but I don’t think that’s what you had in mind.

Patrick Schwarz: I don’t think I was ever that. I think I definitely was my own person and had my own opinions. He was very strong, and he definitely had a certain way of doing business. But I, actually was pretty strong and had a certain way of doing business as well. And I think we both respected each other.

David Hirsch: Yeah, I love it. that’s a really powerful relationship that sounds like you shared. So I’m sort of curious to know, did you have any direct or indirect connection with the world of disability as a youth or as a young adult?

Patrick Schwarz: Absolutely. I think one thing that was really major is my next door neighbor was David, and David was my next door neighbor who was also my friend. And he was slightly older than me, and as an attribute, he had down syndrome. David was absolutely great. We lived a house away from a park, so I would go to the park with him and. And very sadly, his parents, who were older than my parents, passed away. And he ended up in an institutional setting and also passed away. What I consider too early, and I would not consider that a quality of life. And it really had stuck in the back of my mind and bothered me a whole lot. David was the closest person that I really got to see his life and had impact on me.

David Hirsch: Yeah, it sounds like it was a profound impact. And very sorry to hear about his situation. You know, his parents passed away, he’s got down syndrome. Death was a lot different 30 some years ago. And that he ends up in an institution and then passing away at a relatively early age. It’s sort of a sad situation, but probably not as uncommon back then. I mean, not parents passing away, but being institutionalized.

Patrick Schwarz: Right. And the time when you consider that, if you think about the 50s through the 70s, that was the institutional era in our country, and those conditions were not great. I even remember when Geraldo Rivera did that expose on Willowbrook and exposed institutions for the not so great conditions they brought forward to people. And that was pretty compelling to our world at that point.

David Hirsch: Yeah, very much so. That was profound. I think that was like a tipping point, if I can call it that. That interview. You didn’t have to have any connection to the world of disability. Right. To know or learn about that. That was like headline news, not just locally, but nationally, maybe even internationally.

Patrick Schwarz: Yes.

David Hirsch: So thanks for that point of reference. So you mentioned sort of like what the backstory was, your connection to the world of disability with your neighbor, friend, David. And then obviously, Lou Brown played an influential role in directing you from an educational standpoint and a career standpoint to, the world of special education. But was there something else that sort of like, was the rocket fuel behind all this?

Patrick Schwarz: I think when I consider the way the world of, disability was set up, that I was starting to see things where there was a whole different system, or a way of doing business that was separate. And that also bothered me. I

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Patrick Schwarz: didn’t understand that as a kid and as an adult. So actually a big part of Lou Brown, he started out, with his federal grants. It was really adult inclusion. So it was live, work, play and become educated in the community. And later on he was part of, the whole school realm. But I lived that in my university time every single day and really felt strongly that what we did for everyone else was what we should really be thinking about for people with disabilities as well. And when you get to know somebody with a disability, I think you’ll discover that they’re more similar and more alike to you than different. So I never thought we needed a separate world for people with disabilities.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, it’s a profound insight and I think your point is a good one. If you’re not touched directly or indirectly by the disability community, why would you be expected to understand or know that? Right?

Patrick Schwarz: Right. And that’s an issue that I think is very predominant if individuals with disabilities are segregated in the schools where you consider that’s where you spend your time as a youth. And you go through elementary school, you go through middle school, you go through high school. And if people with disabilities are always separate, the free, appropriate, public mandated education runs out and everybody has to live in the world together. And I think the issue with the separate is kids that are in school, if that’s what they experience, they actually end up, graduating from the school system to thinking that the world should be arranged the way their school was arranged. So they actually think that people should be separate. No wonder we have an over 75% unemployment rate for people with disabilities, which I don’t think has anything to do with people with disabilities. I think it has to do with our general population, who becomes the co workers, employers, and we want them to become neighbors and friends. But all, of that becomes very difficult if people with and without disabilities didn’t spend time and learn about each other. If you think they should be separate, that’s a big problem. And I think it’s actually taken away so much opportunity and possibility for people with disabilities.

David Hirsch: Absolutely. The story that comes to mind, there’s a fellow here in the Chicago area, Randy Lewis is his name, and Randy is a neighbor. And, I give him some attribution for helping create this podcast. He was literally interview number two, episode number two. Okay, you know the story because of the work that you’ve been doing. But, like 15 years ago, he was like EVP at Walgreens, head of the distribution centers, had 10,000 people reporting to him, billion dollar P and L. And he was motivated to see if they could employ people with disabilities. And it, took him years to convince the Walgreens board to sign off on the idea. And that first distribution center, which they had made a commitment to hire, a third of the 600 employees were people with all different types of disabilities. And it was in Anderson, South Carolina. People were sitting on pins and needles thinking, oh, I hope nothing goes wrong. A year into it, you know, they hired 200 people with disabilities and their ratio is like two to one, two able bodied people per person with a disability. And they realized that that distribution center was the most efficient, the most profitable. They had the highest level of retention, very little attrition, because people with disabilities don’t quit very often because it’s hard to find these jobs. You know, it became a, blueprint for Walgreens to build new distribution centers with at least a third of the employees with disability and then go back and retrofit all the other distribution centers. And then all of a sudden, you know, this is like headline news. First page in the Wall Street Journal that Walgreens is doing this. You know, we’ve always separated, you know, people who are able bodied and people that aren’t. You know, here a corporation was taking the lead to somehow break those walls down and provide people with opportunities. And that’s all they need is opportunities. And there’s some quirky things that go on in the world of disability, but hey, there’s some quirky things that go on in the typical able bodied people too. Anyway, I just, love the clarity of your message.

Patrick Schwarz: Yeah, thank you so much. And I think there’s very significant research about people with disabilities and the work world. So you reflected it very correctly. It’s more reliable, more workers, less turnover. And

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Patrick Schwarz: there are just great research studies about that. So thank you for sharing that. And actually, kudos to the pioneer from Walgreens who, may have not known that initially when he went into this, but he proved it to be something really great for the workforce.

David Hirsch: Absolutely. And not to focus on the negative, but what have been some of the bigger obstacles or challenges in your career?

Patrick Schwarz: Yeah, I think attitudes are probably the biggest thing. So the biggest challenge, I think, when I consider inclusion, so my definition of inclusion is everybody belongs everywhere with everyone else in our schools and our community. And it seems like a pretty simple definition, but it is actually really big to live up to when you consider all the separate in the world of special education. So you think about all of, the identifications, the labels, the separate places, not giving people the opportunity to be in general environments oftentimes. So the first one I said was attitude. So there are wonderful leaders that I get to meet out there that are doing a wonderful job making everybody belonging everywhere with everyone else. There are also a number of people that are stakeholders, that are leaders in schools and school systems that think that schools should look like the way they did when they went to school. And there’s so much research about inclusion and, things to make it work. So thinking about individual accommodations, something that is called universal design for learning, making things accessible for everyone. By the way, that’s a best practice in general education, but it helps students with disabilities. Another one is differentiation. So making learning work for everybody. So thinking about, each student in the classroom, if you consider the classroom, there are going to be some people that maybe finish something first. Is there a, route they can go in terms of, taking the next step? And for kids that may need something more basic or struggle with something, how do we support that? Actually, through universal design for learning, differentiation and accommodations, we have the research to make this work for everybody. I think attitudes and people not keeping up with the research about best practice to make learning work for everybody in schools, I think is a huge thing. Those are some of the biggest things I deal with.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, thanks for pointing that out. You touched on something that I thought is worth pursuing a little bit further, which is the use of labels. Parents are conflicted in many situations with labels. You know, if you accept the fact that there’s a label, you’re entitled to some financial support or resources. And then there’s this issue about denial. You know, I’m not going to acknowledge that my child has autism or down syndrome, or cerebral palsy or rare disease. I’m just gonna treat him or her just like everybody else. I’m going to raise my kids the same way. Hey, I get it. You know, you want to have the same high expectations for all of your kids, right? Don’t treat them differently. But where do you come down on the use of labels?

Patrick Schwarz: So here’s what I believe. We have established a system through our law. So individuals with Disabilities Education act that we identify and assign a label to a student to receive special education services. That brings funding into the schools. I want schools to have funding for people to receive supports and services for special education. However, let’s keep that at an administrative level. So I’ll give you an example of, where I think the labeling thing failed. So I was in a school not in Illinois, in a different state, and they had labels on doors. So there was one IS learning resource room, and there was one door that said ALPS was alternative learning program. Every student in the school knew that if you walk through those doors in the school that you had been labeled

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Patrick Schwarz: with special education services. And for some students, that was a moment of shame. So what I want to establish is keeping that at an administrative level. And when we get to the school part is, I think the best label to give someone is their name. And everybody has their own ways of learning their individual, learning characteristics. If you’ve met one person, for example, who has autism as an attribute, you’ve met one person who has autism. There are certain characteristics that are sometimes established. However, it manifests itself in every individual in their own way. So let’s keep labels out of the schools. I would be the biggest fool right now doing a podcast if I said that we shouldn’t use labels to identify people. Well, that’s our system, and that brings funding. And I would be a big fool if I said we should stop funding for people. We need that funding to support individuals.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, I love the way you characterize that, which is- it’s sort of like a necessary evil, right? The way things are financed or funded, and, you know, just leave it at that. Right? People are human beings. Let’s refer to them by name and not their disability or the deficit model that I think exists in our society. And, I think the world’s a better place. I’d like to switch gears and talk about your prolific writing. By my count, there are five books, I think, and I’m just gonna, like, read the titles in chronological order. And then I’d like to take a deep dive on, the first one, the one that I’m most familiar with. So the first is From Disability to Possibility, which came, out in 2006. And then the, next, if I’ve got it right, in chronological order, is, You’re Welcome: 30 Innovative Ideas for the Inclusive Classroom 2007. And I have no idea why the title of this one is what it is: Just Give Him the Whale. 20 Ways to Use Fascinations, Areas of Expertise and Strength to Support Students with Autism. 2008, Pedro’s Whale. So there’s got to be a connection between those two. 2010, and then, the last or most recent is from Prosperity to Success in 2013. So I don’t think we’ll have time to take a deep dive into each of those. But I do want to come back and touch on each of these, works of yours. But, I had the pleasure of reading From Disability to Possibility, which came out in 2006, and you make a pretty convincing argument for inclusive classrooms versus segregated classrooms. Right. That message came through from the very get go. And then you went through and sort of explained why this is in easy, to understand. Like, you know, you don’t have to be like an educator. Right? Layman’s terms. So I really appreciate the clarity of your writing. So I’ve got, a few questions that I’d like to, throw your way. The first is again, the title of which is from Disability to Possibility challenges this traditional deficit model. What pivotal moment or experience led you to reframe disability through the lens of possibility rather than limitation?

Patrick Schwarz: This is a great story. So at the time I was with my niece who was three years old, and we were out in the community, and we saw a person using a wheelchair to get around for their mobility. Think it’s something we should see every day. And she started to do the clinging thing to my leg. Like, I’m scared of this. And I was perplexed by it because I said to myself, I have devoted my professional career to advancing the status of, people that have diverse support needs. And here I have a relative who is scared of a person using a wheelchair to get around who, was clinging to my leg. But then I got this epiphany, light bulb went over my head and I said, I need to educate her. And so used at the time a, Barbie doll that was in a wheelchair, used a wheelchair to get around, named Becky. It said on the box that she was the high school photographer to educate about disability and people who might use different types of mobility. And when I was actually teaching her person first language at the time. So rather than disabled person to say a person with a disability, she couldn’t say the word disability.

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Patrick Schwarz: So what came out instead is, she said people with possibilities. And I said, wow, I like your word a lot better and you don’t need to learn the other word. And so she inspired me to consider something that I term as possibility studies. And it’s looking at potential, it’s looking at attributes, it’s looking at strengths and talents and skills to inform us how to support that person to be successful in learning in schools and in the community. I have to say something too, David. By the way, that three year old niece is now a, teacher. And she is a teacher of an inclusive classroom. I couldn’t be more delighted. She has created possibilities now for some time for people that are her students, which is exciting.

David Hirsch: That is amazing. So the seeds got planted very early in her situation.

Patrick Schwarz: No doubt that is true.

David Hirsch: Your work emphasizes inclusion as a human right rather than a privilege. What do you see as the biggest barrier still standing in the way of true inclusion in today’s schools or workplaces? And how can we begin to dismantle it?

Patrick Schwarz: Yeah, I think as I said before, it’s people not embracing the best practices is a big barrier. So, thinking schools should look like the way they did when they’re in the past. Sometimes people protect the separate model too. Therefore it’s a big barrier to people belonging everywhere with everyone else in their schools and their community. What we need to do are a few things to make that actually go away. So we need people to get experiences, to visit places that are making that be successful. So different places, sometimes it’s hard to believe something that you’ve never seen. And I’ve also been a big part of, promoting book studies, learning about that people actually use the book from disability to possibility for book studies. There’s some other great ones. Paula Kluth, You’re Gonna Love This Kid. Mara Sapon Shevin, Widening the Circle, things such as that. And then also doing some piloting and having people experience trying it out and being very honest about what’s working and where there’s struggles and growing that and making that work, knowing that it is best practice. By the way, there are people out in the world to help schools make that happen. It’s what I do every single day.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, I love it. And I think that what I heard you saying is that, you know, if you’re not embracing the best practices or the research, you really don’t have a, firm ground to be standing on. Maybe that’s just the waves that are going through the world of education these days. We just have to wait till they get bigger and bigger and bigger until they’re more widely accepted or acknowledged.

Patrick Schwarz: And one thing, David, I just want to say there’s some good news. Something that a number of school districts are embracing is it is co teaching. So that would be when there is a general educator and a special educator that teach together in a general education classroom. And the class is a bit more diverse and varied. So there are students also in the classroom that have special education identifications. There are 10 different co teaching models every single week. I am doing professional development and co teaching coaching in school districts. And this is being established as a practice to make learning work for everybody that is inclusive in nature, and it is on the rise. And pretty much every school system has some degree and some level of co teaching taking place.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, thanks for mentioning that. Totally oblivious to what’s going on.

Patrick Schwarz: I’m here to help.

David Hirsch: Yeah. In your book, you advocate for seeing people’s gifts first. Can you share a powerful story or someone whose talents were overlooked until they were viewed through the lens of possibility?

Patrick Schwarz: Yeah, I’ll just give an example. I think this is a fun one that I experienced in schools. There was a student that I met who. This is Trevor. And he has some, very much musical, rhythmic gifts. So he has strong musical, rhythmic intelligence. He’s a kid that struggled with some pretty significant

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Patrick Schwarz: learning disabilities, some cognitive support needs as well. But he was a student that he would always have his ear pods on when he could put them on. And he walked kind of with a rhythm and with a beat. He struggled in things that were expected in school, like spelling on the essay, et cetera. And, we talked about some of his struggle areas. And one of the things I said is, why don’t we take his gift with musical, rhythmic type of intelligence and pair it with some of the places that he struggled. So actually what we did is we put his spelling words to a rap beat, and all of a sudden he’s spelling words very successfully. So oftentimes, if you can tap into somebody’s gifts and talents, they are definitely ways and means to strategize how you help with their struggle areas or their disability areas. So that’s an example of turning disability into possibility.

David Hirsch: I love that story about Trevor. Is there a tool, a resource that you’re familiar with, Patrick, that a parent can seek online or otherwise, that would help them vet what their child’s gifts or talents are? I mean, is there like a checklist almost you go through to say, oh, let’s try to narrow this down, be systematic about that?

Patrick Schwarz: Yeah, actually the book Just Give Him the Whale that is using strengths, talents, possibilities, skills, fascination areas to support people in school and beyond? Now, here’s the secret about that particular book. It says for students with autism. I wrote that With Paula Kluth. So if you’re writing with Paula Kluth, who’s a big autism guru, I actually hired her for her first job, by the way. But the thing is, you have to put for people with autism. But the secret about that book and that checklist and the inventories in them to find out strengths is it’s for everybody. That’s a great resource. So kind of look beyond that particular characteristic, that particular attribute in the COVID and know that there’s some really great resources in that book for tapping into what are those strengths. Another one that, should be easy for people to find, it’s Howard Gardner’s multiple intelligence. If you look on a Google search, for example, and put in Howard Gardner multiple. Let’s put intelligences. So let’s pluralize it. There are inventories in, different intelligence areas. So what Howard Gardner said is schools have looked too narrowly at intelligence. We focus mainly on verbal, linguistic and logical mathematical. So reading, writing and math, people are talented in much more areas. And intelligence is like your fingerprint. It’s individual. And it’s not whether people are smart, it’s how people are smart. So he actually developed a lot of areas that go beyond the verbal, linguistic and the logical mathematical. So he has interpersonal, intra personal, visual, spatial, bodily, kinesthetic, musical, rhythmic, naturalistic, which is the sciences. And he has inventories. You can find them, online, where you just check off different attributes that are part of who you are. I wish this was used. We would look at how we support people in school rather than IQ tests, I think IQ tests, what that does is, is it puts intelligence on a continuum and, assigns a numerical value. And I think it’s a very simplistic way of looking at intelligence when intelligence is much more organic than that. So I’m a big fan of, Howard Gardner’s multiple intelligences, by the way. That’s been around for decades. And when people ask me to do an independent evaluation, I will include that in the evaluation. And I will say, enough people have done IQ tests over time. Let’s look at something a little bit different that I think is going to help you a lot more in school. That’s the way I

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Patrick Schwarz: operate.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing. I’ll be sure to include some information on Howard Gardner’s multiple intelligences in the, show notes. So for somebody who’s driving or working out or, you know, can’t stop and take a note, it’ll all be there.

Tom Couch: We’ll be back with more of the conversation on the Special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast in just a few moments. But first, this quick message. Please help 21st Century Dads gather research on families raising children with special needs by having them complete the Special Fathers Network Early Intervention Parents survey. A link to the survey can be found in the show notes. As a token of our appreciation, each person, mom or dad, who completes the survey will receive a great dad coin. Thank you. Now back to the conversation.

David Hirsch: Just a question or two more about from Disability to Possibility. The shift from compliance to belonging is a core theme in your message. How can educators, parents, employers cultivate environments of belonging rather than just meeting minimum standards of inclusion?

Patrick Schwarz: First of all, I want to mention this again is realizing that people with disabilities are more like everybody else than different. And I think that’s super important. Like, for example, where people I think fail is they think individuals, for example, who have autism as an attribute are wanting to be in their own world and don’t want the social relationships and more personal relationships that other people want. That is totally untrue. Watch the current television show Love on the Spectrum and what you’re going to find is with individuals being more like everybody else, that individuals with autism want the same types of personal relationships. Everybody else wants, however they want it on their own terms, which I think everybody else wants to as well. And also too. Let’s talk about how schools embrace this further. So think about finding out what are the interests and talents and skills. Keep a running record because that can change over time for individuals and also find a way to tie that into school and learning and after school. So, for example, my son Dan actually, who had an IEP, one of the things that he advocated for that was a passion and interest of his, by the way, it still is, is gaming. And he advocated for a gaming club in high school which didn’t exist. And I think the criteria from the principal in the school, he said, there can be no games of adult content or violence. And Dan literally went home that night and created two pages of games that would qualify for that, like Mario Brothers, et cetera. And so the principal said, Dan, the next day when Dan brought it to him, he said, you have, given me information. I’m now going to start the gaming club and get a faculty sponsor. And because you did the background work for this club, you get to be the gaming club president. That was a game changer for my son because, all of a sudden he started to like school. He made greater relationships with individuals who had the same interests. And he actually also advocated for a gaming club, when he got accepted at university. So that’s an example of how a school system, both leadership and faculty, embraced a student’s passions and interests and created something that was a game changer for a student. And it was also of great interest to a lot of other students. It changed his life and it helped him like school. What’s not to love about that?

David Hirsch: I love it. Thanks for sharing that story about Dan. Looking ahead, what gives you hope? Are there any emerging trends, practices or movements that signal a real cultural shift in how we support individuals with disabilities?

Patrick Schwarz: Yeah, I think that a big part of what I do is try to turn stumbling blocks into stepping stones. So what is giving me hope is when I get to work with people who are embracing, supporting people with their passions and interests. Another thing that is greatly giving me hope is co teaching. Cause I think it’s making inclusive

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Patrick Schwarz: education widen and happen successfully. And something that gives me hope is every single week I, I meet somebody who is actually, I think, challenging. Like some of those things that aren’t great statistics, like that 75% unemployment, rate and turning disability into possibility. And when I meet people who are making things happen, I zero in on them pretty quickly and I ask them, how did you make that happen? And I asked, them, David, if I can interview them for research for my books like you’re interviewing me now, so that we can build on that and turn possibility into success. So that’s a big part of what gives me hope.

David Hirsch: I love it. Thank you. So let’s just do a, quick round robin on the other four books. next in the series, if I call it series, Next chronologically is Entitled, You’re Welcome, 30 Innovative Ideas for the Inclusive Classroom. What was the essence of that book?

Patrick Schwarz: The essence of that book was actually giving people strategy for some of the areas that help make inclusion work. So there is a section on differentiation and universal design. There is a section on positive behavior supports, and there is also a, ah, section on the whole relationship, collaboration, building between families and schools to make that relationship work. So we can really work effectively as a team to bring this forward 24 hours a day. Because the community is also a big part of inclusion. It doesn’t stop at the school doors. Remember, successful inclusion is living, working, playing and becoming educated in the community with a quality of life. That’s really what it’s all about.

David Hirsch: Thank you. The next book is Just Give Him the Whale: 20 ways to use Fascinations, Areas of expertise and strengths to Support Students with Autism. That’s the book that you were referring to a little while ago. Right?

Patrick Schwarz: It’s looking at how we use those strengths. It’s a strengths based approach to support people effectively. That has the checklists and the strategy around that and so many successful stories about how it’s been used for individuals, which is really fun. That was a great, fun book to write. It’s been translated into seven other languages, so it’s a worldwide book.

David Hirsch: So I don’t get it. I’m a little bit slow on the uptake here. What’s the whale?

Patrick Schwarz: The Whale is based on a story of a real life student, Pedro, who is part of Chicago public schools. He started at a school in Chicago in kindergarten and brought his whale to class. And one day he was in math class and he was playing with his whale and he was not doing the work in math. So the teacher was actually a really good teacher, said Pedro, right now we’re not doing whales, we’re doing math. And I’m going to put your whale on the choice table so when you finish your math work, you can have a choice to use your whale. Well, actually, Pedro ended up crying and hiding under a table from that, which was sad. But the principal saw that and she said, Pedro’s new to our school. He may need a little extra comfort and support. What do you want him to do? And the teacher said, I want him to sit with his classmates, follow directions and do his work. And the principal said, new things are scary for Pedro and if you want him to do all those things, she said, his, whale helps him feel safe and do his best work. And she said, just give him the whale. And it was a game changer. The teacher came up with all these great ways to support him with his passionate interest. And then the kids started doing it. And Pedro loved school and became very successful. So that’s the whale. And the whale is symbolic of, how we use passions and interests to support people. And the whale was Pedro’s big passion.

David Hirsch: Thank you for the explanation. So the most recent of the five, writings is From Prosperity to Success. And I’m wondering, what did you accomplish there?

Patrick Schwarz: From Possibility to Success actually gives tools to make things work.

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Patrick Schwarz: So it gives tools for differentiation, universal design, and how we look forward to the future in supporting people. So I’m a big fan is that we can include people all along the school years. There is the technology and research and best practice to make it work. And then oftentimes individuals with disabilities will qualify for further education between 18 and 21. And then we want to start looking at how we apply that to the future. But there are things we can do every single grade. If we teach what we would call functional skills in the places where you need to use them and include people at the same time so you can have it all. You don’t need separate classes between first grade and 12th grade for people with disabilities. If we teach those life skills in the natural places where they occur and include people at the same time, you can have it all. And there’s numerous students that we’ve proven that to be the case.

David Hirsch: So what comes to mind is that you can have your cake and eat it too.

Patrick Schwarz: So, for example, you don’t need a separate time telling class. teach time telling throughout the school day. Teach a person how to use a schedule. Teach them how to use it on a phone. That’s an example. Communication. You don’t need a separate communication class. support communication skills in all classes and at social times. So I think a lot of functional skills programs actually do something that is very repetitive. So, for example, there was one student who I worked with, Aaron, and I actually observed him in his morning routine at home before school. He actually helped to make breakfast and put some dishes in the dishwasher. Guess what he did, David, at 10 in the morning in his functional skills program. He made breakfast again at 10. And I said, of, all the things that he could be doing in the world, was breakfast the most important at that time, when he had just done it and his family had supported him to be as independent as possible and learn. What a waste of time and common sense. Teach functional skills at the time that they occur and include people. You can have it all.

David Hirsch: I love it. Thank you. So I’m thinking about advice now that you might share with parents, specifically dads who are either at the beginning of their journey or maybe they’re a decade into their journey, raising a child with, different abilities. What type of advice would you offer dads?

Patrick Schwarz: The first thing is schools look very different than when you went to school. When we’re thinking about the best practice for kids that have a disability, the more normalized or inclusive their educational program is, the more they will be prepared for skills and the real world. Some people think that you have to make everything simpler and that it should go slower and things like that. The educational research shows that actually high expectations and learning things that are taught in an engaging, we would say, nimble type of manner actually capture the student’s attention and prepare them for a better education. So promote inclusion and also do everything you can to make sure that schools understand the strengths, talents, abilities, passions and interests of your kid. And that will serve your kid very well.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, if I can paraphrase, I think what you said, I’m thinking specifically about these IEP meetings that the parents find themselves in on a semester to semester basis. And there’s some pushback about inclusive, classrooms in some cases not all. But I think what I hear you saying is that parents should be pushing to make sure that their kids are included in those classrooms as opposed to being segregated or isolated.

Patrick Schwarz: Definitely, you have got it. You summed it up beautifully. There will be better results, there will be better outcomes for living, working plain and becoming educated in the community. And your son or daughter will go further.

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Patrick Schwarz: Separate classes. There are not the educational models for your son or daughter that you are going to have with everybody belonging everywhere with everyone else in that situation, there are going to be more students to model off of and more environments rather than just separate places. That’s very important for education.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, you’re reminding me about a, friend. This has nothing to do with disability, and education. But there’s a friend in Chicago, his name is Eboo Patel. And IBU is brilliant. He’s most well recognized for the work that he’s doing in education, mostly on college campuses and bringing people together of different faith beliefs. it’s like a service model where these students from these various faith beliefs, Jews, Christians, Hindu, Muslim, atheists, agnostics, like there’s everybody’s got a seat at the table, and they’re working on a service project and there’s a curriculum that they’ve wrapped around the service project, service project of your choice at your school. And the students realize that they have more in common even though their religious differences are dramatically different than they would have expected. Right. And they’re building these relationships, these friendships and that’s going to make the world a better place years or decades down the road because people are more familiar with people that are not the same as them. And that’s what I hear you saying, is that, you know, we need from a very young age to include people with different abilities in the same environment. Right. Because like you said, once you are out of the educational environment, we’re all in the real world, the so called real world. Right. And I, love the way that you’ve articulated that, that we need to challenge ourselves to transform the educational systems from the old way of doing things to a more inclusive way of doing things.

Patrick Schwarz: And thank you, David. I think that is a beautiful story and just a really great experience for all the people who, were part of that to go through. I also want to say I don’t want to make any fathers feel bad, if their situation hasn’t been inclusive for their sons and daughters. What I say are a few things. It’s never too early, it’s never too late to start. Every day is a new chance. And don’t quit five minutes before the miracle happens. Those are some things that I live my life by. And, we’ve seen some really great outcomes when we can take steps going towards something that is going to make a great future happen for a son or a daughter.

David Hirsch: I love it. Thank you. Let’s give a special shout out to John Schauss, one of the Special Fathers Network mentor fathers and mastermind group dads, who was featured in SFN Dad to Dad Podcast episode number 52. That’s like 300 some episodes ago for helping connect us.

Patrick Schwarz: Yes. And John shouts bringing people together in the same community that didn’t know each other and he lives in a different community.

David Hirsch: Yeah. It takes a guy from, Nashville to put two Chicagoans together. I love it.

Patrick Schwarz: I love that.

David Hirsch: If somebody wants to learn more about your books, hiring you as a speaker or to contact you, what’s the best way to do so?

Patrick Schwarz: I think the easiest way is patrickschwarz.com Schwarz does not have a T in it. I think that’s, probably the easiest way to find out about me. It’s just S C, H, W A R Z. And I welcome people connecting.

David Hirsch: I’ll be sure to include that, in the show notes as well. And with your permission, your LinkedIn profile as well, I thought that might be a good way for people to connect with you.

Patrick Schwarz: Thank you. I appreciate that.

David Hirsch: David, Patrick, thank you for your time and many insights. As a reminder, Patrick’s just one of the individuals who’s part of the Special Fathers Network mentoring program for fathers raising a child with special needs. If you’d like to be a mentor father or are seeking advice from a mentor father with a similar situation to your own, Please go to 21stCenturyDads.org. Thank you for listening to the latest episode of the Special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. As you probably know, the 21st Century Dads foundation is a 501c3 not for profit organization, which means we need your help to keep our content free to all concern. Would you please consider making a tech selectable contribution? I would really appreciate your support. Patrick, thanks again.

Patrick Schwarz: Thank you David.

Tom Couch: And thank you for listening to the Special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast. The Special Fathers Network is a dad to dad mentoring program for fathers raising children with special needs. Through

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Tom Couch: Through our personalized matching process, new fathers with special needs children match up with mentor fathers in a similar situation. It’s a great way for dads to support other dads. To find out more, go to 21stCenturyDads.org.

David Hirsch: And if you’re a dad looking for help or would like to offer help, we would be honored to have you join our closed Facebook group. Please go to facebook.com groups and search dad to dad. Lastly, we’re always looking to share interesting stories. If you’d like to share your story or know of a compelling story, please send an email to david@21stcenturydads.org.

Tom Couch: The Special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast was produced by me, Tom Couch. Thanks again to Amgen. Committed to unlocking the potential of biology for patients suffering from serious illnesses by discovering, developing, manufacturing and delivering innovative human therapeutics. Discover more about Amgen’s mission at Amgen.com.

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