114 – SEND International Missionary Nathan Woerner And His Daughter with Angelman Syndrome

Transcript:

Tom Couch: The Fathers Network is thrilled to be sponsored by Rubin Law, a multi-generational law firm dedicated exclusively to serving families raising children with special needs. It’s not one thing they do, it’s the only thing they do. To find out more, go to rubinlaw.com, or call 847-279-7999 and mention the Special Fathers Network for a free consultation.

Nathan Woerner: Craziest thing is one of the symptoms of Angelman syndrome is a happy and excitable demeanor. If you ever get to meet an angel, they are so happy all the time. Even when they’re frustrated at not being able to do something, they’ll laugh. It is such a joy-filled diagnosis. It’s challenging. It is very challenging.

Tom Couch: That’s Nathan Woerner, a missionary with Send International and a father of two children, including Ada, who has Angelman syndrome. Nathan tells of his family’s travels to Japan and the differences between American and Japanese doctors. That’s all on this Special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast. Here’s our host, David Hirsch.

David Hirsch: Hi, and thanks for listening to the Dad to Dad Podcast, fathers mentoring fathers of children with special needs, presented by the Special Fathers Network.

Tom Couch: The Special Fathers Network is a dad to dad mentoring program for fathers raising children with special needs. Through our personalized matching process, new fathers with special needs children connect with mentor fathers in a similar situation. It’s a great way for dads to support dads. To find out more, go to 21stcenturydads.org.

David Hirsch: And if you’re a dad looking for help, or would like to offer help, we’d be honored to have you join our closed Facebook group. Please go to facebook.com/groups and search dad to dad.

Tom Couch: So let’s listen now to this conversation between Nathan Woerner and David Hirsch.

David Hirsch: I am thrilled to be talking today with Nathan Woerner, presently of Knoxville, Tennessee, who’s the father of two and an international missionary with Send International, a Christian missionary organization. Nathan, thank you for taking the time to do a podcast interview for the Special Fathers Network.

Nathan Woerner: Absolutely. I’m honored to be here.

David Hirsch: You and your wife Maryah have been married for 14 years and are the proud parents of two girls, Naomi, four, and Ada, two, who has Angelman syndrome. Let’s start with some background. Where did you grow up? Tell me something about your family.

Nathan Woerner: I’m the middle of five kids, four boys and the youngest is a girl. My family moved an awful lot, but I can proudly say that I’m from the southeast United States. All of my family are very well connected, and interestingly, the majority of us are homeschooled for most of our educational career.

David Hirsch: Very interesting. So, out of curiosity, what did your dad do?

Nathan Woerner: He was a computer consultant, particularly focusing on accounting packages and small business development.

David Hirsch: Is your dad still alive?

Nathan Woerner: He is.

David Hirsch: And does he live there in Tennessee, or where does he live?

Nathan Woerner: He lives outside of Nashville, Tennessee, in a little town called Centerville.

David Hirsch: How would you describe your relationship with your dad?

Nathan Woerner: Very, very solid. Of course, growing up I’ve had some rough patches, but we’ve reconciled very well, and I love my father very much.

David Hirsch: When you think of your dad, what comes to mind as far as lessons learned or the role model that he was?

Nathan Woerner: He was a very passionate man. He was an entrepreneur and always willing to take risks. He had a special kind of confidence, that no matter how many times he got knocked down, no matter how many times his project failed, he got up and had another one ready to go.

So he taught me some real stick-to-itiveness, some real perseverance, even the midst of some significantly challenging times.

David Hirsch: So I know that there’s a deep spiritual belief that your family has, and I’m wondering where that came from.

Nathan Woerner: Yeah. My family, both mom and dad are multiple, multiple generation Christians and very, very passionate about their faith. It is not an element of their life—it’s the core of their life. And so that was passed down to all of the children. We all have seen great and amazing things happen from a God that loves us and cares for us.

David Hirsch: That’s fabulous. Why don’t you tell me where you went to school, Nathan?

Nathan Woerner:  I got my undergrad in communications from Middle Tennessee State University, and then I have a Certificate of Biblical Ministry from Columbia International University in Columbia, South Carolina.

David Hirsch: So you started out focused on going into the camping arena, you did some work in the business arena, and from what I remember, you spent a fair amount of time at a YMCA in Greenville, as an afterschool counselor. And then for about same number of years you’ve been with Send International. What does Send International do?

Nathan Woerner: Send International is an international church planting ministry. We exist in some 60 plus countries. We have well over 300  missionary families, individuals or families. Primarily, their sphere is in Asia and the Eastern Europe area, but we’re all over the world. Their goal is to bring the hope that we have found in Jesus to countries that are lacking hope.

And it’s transitioning well into what we foresee our future ministry being, which is bringing the hope that we found into the special needs life through Jesus, into a group of people, a community of people, that are particularly in need of that hope.

David Hirsch: Well, I really admire the work that you do and the work that Send International does. And from what I remember, you’ve spent the better part of the last five years in Tokyo.

Nathan Woerner: Yeah, it’s the largest city in the world, 37 million people, which is mind boggling. We’re now in the state of Tennessee, and for those of us that also lived in Texas, it’s the entire population of Texas plus Manhattan squeezed into the size of Dallas County.

So it’s very compact. It’s very modern. It’s really beautiful. We love being there. I had both of my daughters there, which was a fantastic experience for me. It was somewhat more traumatic for my wife. It’s been a really great place for us.

David Hirsch: Well, I’m hoping for your sake that, if your goal is to get back to Tokyo as soon as possible, that once these travel restrictions are lifted, that you and Maryah and your girls will be able to do that.

Nathan Woerner: Yes, we are too.

David Hirsch: So let’s switch gears and talk about special needs, first on a personal level, and then beyond. And I’m sort of wondering, before Ada’s diagnosis, if you or Maryah had any experience with special needs.

Nathan Woerner: One of my best friends in high school’s older sister has Rhett Syndrome, which I remember was a pretty bizarre thought for me when I first found out. And now I’m extremely happy to say that that sister is now 40 years old and still doing very well. So it gave me a lot of hope, and I really appreciated the compassion that my friend had because of her sister’s condition.

David Hirsch: Very interesting. So I’m sort of curious to know, what is Ada’s diagnosis, how did it transpire, and what was your first reaction upon learning about it?

Nathan Woerner: Oh, man. Angelman’s syndrome is a super rare genetic disorder that affects the function of the brain. My daughter is missing about five million pairs of her DNA, which is about one half of 1% of her DNA. And typically it takes a while for it to be diagnosed. It’s often misdiagnosed as either epilepsy or cerebral palsy.

In our particular story, when Ada was born, there was some unusual circumstances at birth. She was going through some distress at birth, and then when she came out, she was very, very pale, which is actually one of the symptoms of it, called hypopigmentation. So a lack of pigmentation.

But everything looked good. Every test look great. But it was actually about two years ago now, around her three month checkup, that we started to notice that she was not hitting any of her milestones.

She wasn’t able to engage with eye contact. She had some pretty significant strabismus. Her eyes were at a pretty wide angle, so she was seeing double everything. She really couldn’t engage very well. She was happy, she was healthy. She seemed to be growing well, but just not developing the way that she should be. She wasn’t pushing up on her hands, wasn’t playing with her toes.

So we ended up seeing five, maybe six pediatricians in Japan before anybody would take us seriously. It’s kind of a cultural thing that the doctors are the experts, and the parents should listen to what the doctors have to say. Which is kind of different from America. America is doctors are the experts, but the doctors should listen to what the parents have to say.

And so after finding a doctor that’s more familiar with working with the Western mindset, I called him and said, “I would love for you to see my daughter and refer us to the hospital.” He said, “I’ll be happy to see her, and if I think she needs it, we’ll refer her to the hospital.”

He thought that she had some hearing loss, which we knew she didn’t, because anytime that her older sister walked in the room, she was super excited. We were referred to a pediatric neurologist named Nishida San. Nishida was really, really a godsend. And I don’t mean that just as a throwaway word. I really do believe that he was there specifically as a grace of God.

He had spent some time in Western medicine training. So he gave us the most consideration of any of the doctors that we dealt with. We ended up doing tests in December, and early December, everything came back normal. MRI, EEG, blood test, everything came back great. So we just thought, oh, maybe she’s a little delayed and we’ll be okay.

Ten days later, she started having what we thought were drop seizures, where she would seem to lose consciousness for just a half a second. And when we talked to him, he said, “Come in and see me today.” Again, by the grace of God,  she actually had three episodes while we were in there with him. So he said, “We need to get her in an EEG for an extended period of time.”

A few days later, we were in there for a purely torturous 30 hours. Trying to keep EEG probes on a nine month old’s head while she’s sweaty and not happy is really challenging, but there was no seizure activity. However, there is a very unique brainwave pattern that is indicative of Angelman syndrome.

Dr. Nishida had never seen an Angelman patient before, but he was able, by that unique signature, to give a preliminary diagnosis of Angelman syndrome on January 19^th, and he said we need to do a blood test, it’ll take about a month and we’ll schedule a revisit on February 15th. That was in 2019. February 15^th, by some remarkable fluke, and/or the grace of God, is International Angelman Awareness Day.

David Hirsch: Oh my.

Nathan Woerner: So when we found that out, we knew that was the diagnosis of our daughter. He described some of the symptoms of what is typical of an Angelman baby. And for me, it was just a checklist of the things that she was going through, including developmental delay.

The craziest thing is one of the symptoms of Angelman Syndrome is a happy and excitable demeanor. If you ever get to meet an angel, they are so happy all the time. Even when they’re frustrated at not being able to do something, they’ll laugh. It is such a joy filled diagnosis. It’s challenging. It is very challenging, but it is full of joy.

So we were really excited that we had at least a diagnosis. It was not what we wanted. It was two sides of the same coin. One thing, we were excited that we finally knew what was going on. But putting a label to it made it permanent, made it real, made it not just in our head, and that was really hard. I didn’t like that.

David Hirsch: So thinking about that, what was going through your mind once the diagnosis was confirmed? What were your fears or concerns as a young dad?

Nathan Woerner: One of the main challenges for Angelman syndrome is the lack of communication. It requires a whole lot of motor planning and a whole lot of control to be able to talk, and so most Angelman kids have no verbalization, or maybe a ten word vocabulary. So I knew that my daughter would probably never be able to say her own name, would not be able to know her sister’s name.

We got to see some really amazing coincidences. They’re not coincidences, but amazing providences. There were at the time five clinics in the United States that specialize in Angelman syndrome. One of the five is in Nashville, Tennessee, at Vanderbilt University, and Dr. Jessica Duis was the head of that clinic. And Dr. Jessica Duis is one of the top geneticists in the world on Angelman syndrome. Nashville, Tennessee, is where my family lives.

So she graciously gave me her cell phone number and said, “Call me. We’ll figure this out.” So I remember distinctly walking through downtown Tokyo with Ada, who was asleep in the little carrier I had. I walked for about seven kilometers that afternoon while talking with Dr. Duis. With the time difference, Dr. Duis got on the call at about 11:30 and stayed on the call with me until 2:30 in the morning….

David Hirsch: Oh my gosh.

Nathan Woerner: ….Just giving me all kinds of information, and really, just speaking a ton of peace and a ton of actual facts and not fear.

So after the conversation with Dr. Duis, she invited me to see her at the clinic at Vanderbilt. We were still in Tokyo at the time, and we had about a month and a half before we had to be in back in the States. So we quickly packed everything up and returned to the States.

We were in the throes of jet lag, but we were in the clinic with Dr. Duis. It was amazing. She said that Ada looked really, really good for her age and for the diagnosis. We did some additional testing to find out exactly what type of Angelman syndrome she has, but from then on, we had the beginning of a team around us to help us, and we were back in the States where I could speak English to anybody and they would understand me. Which is a blessing.

We got to meet the first child with Angelman syndrome a few weeks later, a little boy named Silas, who is about a year older than our daughter Ada, and could be her twin. It’s amazing how much they look alike. In fact, I saw a picture of Silas on Facebook, and I asked Maryah, “Who took that picture of Ada?”

Silas’s parents are in the medical field in Nashville, and they suggested that, just in case, we have some emergency seizure medication. So we got a prescription on April 14th, we picked it up, and Good Friday of last year, we were visiting some friends. Ada started behaving a little bit strange. We thought she might have a fever, so we took her temperature. She had a very, very slight fever. We were going to go have dinner with the friends.

We got in the car, drove about a mile and a half, and she was in full-blown seizing. Long seizing. We ended up calling the ambulance and giving her the seizure medication for the first time. We had literally picked it up three days before.

She spent the night in the emergency room. Again, we’re in Nashville, so we were able to go to Vanderbilt and see the team that was already tasked and equipped to help her. Man to talk about an emotional thing. That took some…that was probably the scariest situation in my entire life.

I was driving to the hospital. The paramedic said, “Hey, I’m going to recommend you go to the hospital. We could take you, you could go, but you’ve already given her seizure medication, so she should be okay.” Which was not the case, but we did drive on to the hospital, and on the way there, she started some significant seizing for more than 22 minutes before the doctors were able to get that under control.

So I remember pulling up to the ER, grabbing my daughter and running in, saying, “I have a one-year-old who is actively seizing,” and they grab her. Maryah goes up to the room with her, and I have to park the car and figure out what I’m going to do with my other daughter.

David Hirsch: Wow.

Nathan Woerner: It’s very common for angels. 80% of Angelman babies have seizures, and many of them have uncontrollable seizures as part of their  diagnosis. And so that is a common element of it, and it’s one of the more scary elements of the diagnosis. But we’ve been very, very blessed to only have that event as her major seizure activity.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well that’s a remarkable story. And talk about being in the right place at the right time with the right people in place. You know, like you said, it’s probably not a coincidence, but it’s the hand of God.

So one of the things that’s not lost on me is that she’s only two years old. The experiences you’re describing are within the last year or so. Have things stabilized to the point where you’re like, “Okay, I think we got this. Like we can move back to Japan where we’re not going to be close to Vanderbilt, we’re not going to be in the US. There are going to be some cultural barriers”?

I don’t want to go fast forward because I’m like, oh my gosh. But you’ve come a long way in the past year, and I’m wondering if it’s because you’ve gotten some meaningful advice, or what’s transpired in the past year that’s sort of helped you and Maryah balance everything?

Nathan Woerner: That is a really good question. It’s actually one we hear a whole lot as we are preparing to return to Japan. The answer is Japan’s medical system is fantastic. It’s not like we’re moving to remote Africa where we’re going to be hours away from the nearest doctor. We will probably be within ten  kilometers or about eight miles from some of the best hospitals in the country.

I think the thing that is biggest, to answer your question, is we have been blessed. We have been gifted, we have developed a team around us that love our family, that love our daughters, and that are really, really skilled at caring for Ada. And so we have resources here that will equip us to work there where we feel God has called us to be, where we are equipped and have a great desire to be.

We’ve now seen dozens of therapists. We got a chance to meet the world’s experts in this disorder on multiple occasions. And so we really have a great exposure on this side of things that now we hope to bring back to Japan. There’s the idea of an ambassador. What I’m doing now is kind of an ambassador for Angelman to the rest of the world, the broader sense of the world.

People that listen to this podcast are going to get an exposure to something that otherwise they probably would never hear of. When we get to Japan, we’re going to be ambassadors of both the truth and the facts and the hope that we found in medicine and the therapies and the therapeutics that are being developed to help treat this.

And then the other side of things, I have found a great peace, a peace that goes beyond what I can explain, in my faith, that I want to bring to Japan, to people that otherwise, when they get a diagnosis like this, don’t have that framework, don’t have that safety net. They don’t have that hope that I have been just overwhelmed with.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well it’s remarkable. Thank you for sharing. And I’m wondering what impact Ada’s situation has had on your marriage and your extended family for that matter.

Nathan Woerner: Yeah. We had our daughters later in our marriage. We’ve been married now for 14 years, and we have a four-year-old and a two-year-old. Which means, most people can do the math, we were 10 years into our marriage before we had our first child. Both the pregnancy and then the diagnosis were shocking.

But we work very well as a team. My wife and I are uniquely suited for each other, and I’m incredibly grateful for Maryah and her steadfastness, her perseverance in the midst of trouble. So yes, it has had an impact on our marriage, and I would say I miss some of the freedom that we had when it was just the two of us. Especially now with all this, with the covid reality that’s going on, it’s been months since I’ve been able to date my wife.

But I spend every waking moment with her. So there’s that. But it’s a sacrifice that we are equipped to handle. We really are, and we love our daughters. I’m actually super blessed to be in this situation right now. Since we’ve been in social distancing, social isolation now since the middle of March, we were given the freedom to spend a lot of time with my kids that I know a lot of dads don’t get.

I’m investing in my daughters now. I’m reading books to my daughters. I’m doing therapy with Ada regularly, and man, they are thriving. While they also greatly desiring to hug every single person that walks by!

David Hirsch: Well that’s got to be a challenge, especially the physical contact aspect of it. So I’m thinking about supporting organizations that you and your family have relied on for Ada, and then for your family overall. I think you talked a lot about Angelmans and angelman.org. It’s an amazing resource. But I’m thinking beyond that. What organizations have been helpful for you so far?

Nathan Woerner: So, the ASF, Angelman Syndrome Foundation, and the Foundation for Angelman Syndrome Therapeutics, FAST. The two separate organizations have both invested greatly in us. We are very close friends with some of the leadership of both of the organizations.

We’ve been able to connect with several organizations in Japan. There is the Angel Group, which is a group of about 180 Angelman families in Japan, and we’re connected with them. Maryah has also connected with a group called Hitori de wa nai, which means “you are not alone.” It’s a group kind of like 21^st  Century Dad’s Dad to Dad.

We’re in a Facebook group that shares resources, that says you’re not there by yourself. Whatever diagnosis you have, Autism to Angelman, it doesn’t matter what the diagnosis is. There are other folks out there. We have one friend that has been able to find three other families in the world that has their child’s diagnosis. That still means they’re not alone. Connecting with that has been really good.

We are connected with Joni and Friends out of California, a wonderful  resource, particularly for us as we are looking at how to resource churches and organizations in Japan to love on families with special needs. They are a really, really solid and very well established organization.

And the 21st Century Dads has invested in me greatly, as I’ve been processing kind of what you were talking about earlier, that there’s a necessity to not harp on the past, to not beat yourself up over your perceived failures, and there’s a necessity to not live in fear of the future, but to be present where you are.

When I got connected to the 21st Century Dads, the reminder that, “Hey, if you do your estate planning well now, you don’t have to have that unknown ahead of you, because you’ve already decided, and now it’s into the past. It’s something you can lean on and relax.” So we have been blessed by those reminders, and some of the other resources we’ve seen received from you guys have been really, really helpful.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well, what’s equally impressive, Nathan, is that you and Maryah are super…well, I was going to say you’re super young parents, but you have super young kids. I think that’s the point.

Nathan Woerner: Yes.

David Hirsch: And so you’re a little bit more seasoned by age, but your girls are super young. They’re only two and four years old. And what is most impressive to me, and I’ve been advocating for kids and dads for like decades, is that you are being more intentional and proactive than virtually all the other dads who have kids your age.

What I’m witnessing, based on how we’ve gotten to know each other and how you’ve shared your story tonight, is that you’re seeing results, right? And you’re empowered, and there’s less mystery. You’re not in denial about the situation. You’re leaning in, whether that’s on your own power, or like you’ve often mentioned, it’s the hand of God playing a role in your lives in so many different ways.

And I’m hoping that you’re just the visible testimony for the way that other young families, families with young children, should be embracing this. You know, every situation is different. You never want to compare yourself to anybody else, but, you know, it is remarkable that you’ve had the experiences you’ve had, and you’re focused and positive and upbeat, which is not a given, based on the fact pattern that you just described.

Nathan Woerner: When I first got back to the States with this diagnosis, I remember thinking, so do I have permission to keep working in ministry? Can I continue to do what I’m doing? I remember this really clear thought of, “Does this prohibit me from doing ministry?” And the reality is, no, it actually has blessed me in the ability to do a ministry that is much more focused on a group of people that need it much more than I could have ever imagined.

And without Ada, I would never been able to join in that ministry. I remember there was one verse—and I’ve actually heard it on several of the other podcasts—which is 2 Corinthians 1:3-4. It says, “And the God of all comfort will comfort you in all circumstances or in all affliction, so that you may comfort others in any affliction with the comfort with which you yourselves have been comforted.”

And for me, it gave me permission to say, “I hurt. This is not fun. This is really rough,” because affliction is part of that. And then I got to sense the comfort that God knew what was going on. He’s got this, it wasn’t a mistake, it wasn’t anybody’s fault. It wasn’t a judgment on me. It’s just where I’m at.

And then it gave me a hope to be able to share my story, my crazy stories, my insane stories, with others, so they might see the same hope that I have with whatever situation they’re in.

So whether you have a special needs kid that’s actively seizing and you just don’t know what to do, or you’ve got a son that’s 25 years old and still having challenges with his autism—I mean, it doesn’t matter what the circumstances are. This life is full of really hard things.

So if I have anything to give you, if I have any hope, it’s that there is a comfort that can be found in God, and then a purpose for that affliction is to then bring comfort and hope to those around you.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well, very well stated. Thank you again for sharing. And I’m sort of curious to know, why is it that you’ve agreed to be part of the Special Fathers Network?

Nathan Woerner: Like you, David, I have been passionate about fatherhood, about masculinity, about becoming a man, since I was 14, 15 years old. Almost as long as you have been. There is a necessity for guys to bear one another up. You’re, not alone. You can’t do this alone. You really can’t. I don’t care if you’re a muscle builder and you’re incredibly strong, or you’re a paratrooper and you’re incredibly brave—you can’t do this by yourself.

 So I know I can’t do this. I’m completely incapable of running my family by myself, of caring for my daughters by myself, of loving my wife well on my own. So I rely on God an awful lot, and I rely on those men around me that have walked the path ahead of me a little bit.

There’s a Japanese idea of sensei, and there’s a Japanese idea of senpai. A sensei is the master that has got it all together. They completely understand whatever topic it is. And then there’s a senpai. And the senpai is the person that’s like seven steps ahead of you, somebody that’s got a little more experience under their belt than you do.

There’s kind of this idea that a senpai is the high school senior who kind of brings the high school freshman up underneath them and says, “Hey, there’s some rough stuff ahead of you. Be careful how you relate to this teacher and how you relate to this clique,” and whatever it is. They’re not masters. They just know a little bit more than you do

So I need some sensei’s in my life, and I also need some senpai in my life. And I think that the special need community has those. If we can call them out and give them the permission to find value in their experience, and then give them the platform to communicate that, then I’m all for work. Because I need it. I’m not going to get this, I’m not going to get through this on my own.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing. One of the thoughts that comes to mind, and it was a quote that my grandmother was often heard saying, is from your lips to God’s ears. I’m hoping that that’s the case, that more dads will get that message and embrace it, whether here in the US or in Japan for that matter.

So I’m wondering if there’s anything else you’d like to say before we wrap up.

Nathan Woerner: I think that there’s a verse in the Bible that says, “Always be ready to make a defense for the hope that’s within you.” And the only way that that works is if you’re in a situation where hopelessness is expected. And the truth is, so many of us—me included when I got the diagnosis, a title, a label for my daughter—there’s a temptation to feel hopeless, to lose hope.

So I’ve found that I have to be a visible presence of hope in the midst of a hopeless situation. And if I can encourage any other dad that’s in this situation, find out where that hope is. Find your hope, lock onto it, anchor yourself in it. Let your hope shine in times of hopelessness.

And love your wives well, guys. They bear all kinds of burdens that you will never know. And it’s really easy to shortchange your responsibility. You are not just the paycheck that brings food to the table, but you are the anchor. You’re the rock in the midst of a crazy storm.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well, thank you again for sharing. We’re thrilled to have you as part of the network.

Nathan Woerner: Glad to be here.

David Hirsch: So if somebody wants to learn more about Send International, about Angelman’s, about any of the resources we’ve talked about here, what’s the best way to get in contact with you?

Nathan Woerner: To be able to get in touch with me with Send International,  go to send.org/woerner, which is how you spell my last name. And if you want more information about Angelman syndrome, go to angelman.org or cureangelman.org. Angelman.org is the Angelman Syndrome Foundation website, which is full of great resources. And the cureangelman.org is the FAST website. There are some really amazing, exciting things coming out in the medical field potentially to reverse Angelman syndrome.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, we’ll be sure to include all that in the show notes so it’ll make it easier for somebody to follow up. Nathan, thank you for taking the time and many insights. As a reminder, Nathan is just one of the dads who’s part of the Special Fathers Network, a mentoring program for fathers raising a child with special needs.

If you’d like to be a mentor father, or are seeking advice from a mentor father with a similar situation to your own, please go to 21stcenturydads.org. Thank you for listening to the latest episode of the Special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did.

As you probably know, the 21st Century Dads Foundation is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization, which means we need your help to keep our content free to all concerned. Please consider making a tax deductible donation. I would really appreciate your support.

Nathan, thank you again.

Nathan Woerner: Thank you so much, David.

Tom Couch: And thank you for listening to The Dad to Dad Podcast, presented by the Special Fathers Network. The Special Fathers Network is a dad to dad mentoring program for fathers raising children with special needs. Through our personalized matching process, new fathers with special needs children connect with mentor fathers in a similar situation. It’s a great way for fathers to support fathers. Go to 21stcenturydads.org.

David Hirsch: And if you’re a dad looking for help or would like to offer help, we would be honored to have you join our closed Facebook group. Please go to facebook.com groups and search dad to dad. Also, please be sure to register for the Special Fathers Network biweekly Zoom calls held on the first and third Tuesdays of every month.

Lastly, we’re always looking to share interesting stories. If you’d like to share your story or know of a compelling story, please send an email to David@21stcenturydads.org.

Tom Couch: If you enjoyed this podcast, please be sure to subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen. The Dad to Dad Podcast was produced by Couch Audio for the Special Fathers Network.

Thanks again to Rubin Law for supporting the Dad to Dad Podcast. Call Rubin Law at (847) 279-7999 and mention the Special Fathers Network for a free consultation.