245 – Marsh Naidoo of Dyersburg, TN, A Physical Therapist, Author, Podcast Host & Mother To A Son With Cerebral Palsy

Transcript:

Tom Couch: Special thanks to Horizon Therapeutics for sponsoring the Special Fathers Network Dad To Dad Podcast, working tirelessly to research, develop, and bring forward medicines for people living with rare and rheumatic diseases. Discover more about Horizon Therapeutics’ mission at HorizonTherapeutics.com.

Marsh Naidoo: I always smile when I say this. Yes, Kellen’s diagnosis has not been an easy one, but it has allowed us to grow as a family in so many other ways beyond our wildest imagination.

Tom Couch: That’s our guest this week, Marsh Naidoo. Marsh is a physical therapist and mother to Kellen who has Cerebral palsy. She’s also the host of the popular Raising Kellen podcast, and she wrote the book, “What I Wish I Knew Back Then.”

Tom Couch: We’ll hear this intriguing conversation between Marsh and our host, David Hirsch, on this Special Fathers Network Dad To Dad podcast. Say hello now to our host, David Hirsch.

David Hirsch: Hi, and thanks for listening to the Dad To Dad podcast, fathers mentoring fathers of children with special needs. Presented by the Special Fathers Network.

Tom Couch: The Special Fathers Network is a Dad to Dad mentoring program for fathers raising children with special needs Through our personalized matching process, new fathers with special needs children connect with mentor fathers in a similar situation. It’s a great way for dads to support dads. To find out more, go to 21stCenturyDads.org.

David Hirsch: And if you’re a dad looking for help or would like to offer help, we’d be honored to have you join our closed Facebook group. Please go to facebook.com, groups, and search “dad to dad”.

Tom Couch: So now let’s listen in as Marsh Naidoo talks to David Hirsch.

David Hirsch: I’m thrilled to be talking today with Marsh Nadioo of Dyersburg Tennessee, who’s a physical therapist by training and experience, founder of Raising Kellen, a not-for-profit organization, author of “What I Wish I Knew Back Then” and host of the Raising Kellen podcast. Marsh, thank you for taking the time to do a podcast interview for the Special Fathers Network, Dad To Dad podcast.

Marsh Naidoo: Thank you, David for inviting me.

David Hirsch: You and your husband Prakash have been married for 13 years and the proud parents of Kellen who has cerebral palsy. Let’s start with some background. Where did you grow up? Tell me something about your family.

Marsh Naidoo: David. I grew up in Durban, South Africa, and, let’s see , ‘m the eldest of three girls. Just we are really close, tight family. Raised up in a traditional unit, both with a mom and a dad. Mama stay-at-home housewife, dad, a medical doctor.

David Hirsch: What type of medicine did your dad practice?

Marsh Naidoo: So my dad was actually like a chief of staffs. He filled a more of an administrative role. He came up through the ranks, just extremely hardworking. I guess that kind of rubbed off on all three girls because we all ventured into the medical field, so that’s very much part of our bloodline. And yeah.

David Hirsch: So is your dad retired? Working? What’s he doing now?

Marsh Naidoo: My dad’s 84, not in the best of health, and he retired actually pretty young. He retired at the age of 55, retired, but not disassociated from the medical field as such. Him and a couple of colleagues got together and formed a hospice that was actually provided services to members in the community. And that is the Chatsworth Hospice, which is still up and running 30 years later.

David Hirsch: I know a little bit about hospice and if what you’re referring to is the fact that he started this 25 years ago, plus or minus, that’s like being a pioneer in that space.

Marsh Naidoo: Yeah.

David Hirsch: So how would you characterize your relationship with your dad?

Marsh Naidoo: My dad, Dr. PK Ndu was just a really supportive dad. But David, he did set the standard and when he did that, I mean it was in terms of academics, just how we carried ourselves. So he set a very high standard, which he upheld us to. Just a really loving dad. Gosh, he taught us so many of those soft skills, treating everyone with dignity and respect and just a lot of that humility I think I have comes from that upbringing.

Marsh Naidoo: And he was also, as I said, that medical background ran really deep, and I think he instilled that sense of accountability for taking care of those that couldn’t take care of themselves in us. So yeah, very supportive, but always upheld us to a high standard and expected us to achieve.

David Hirsch: Well, he sounds like a great role model, and I’m wondering were there any important takeaways in addition to showing respect and dignity for everyone in serving those who have less?

Marsh Naidoo: I would say David not giving up. Now, we grew up in a time in South Africa, which was during the apartheid era, and my dad, in order to do that medical degree, could not get that done in South Africa. So he actually got a Commonwealth scholarship. Which means he had to leave South Africa. He chose to travel to India where he gained his medical degree. He pursued his medical degree. And just that tenacity of knowing what you want and working for it. And I think that is very much rubbed off on us. Just that work ethic and that tenacity and working for what you want.

David Hirsch: Another good and important characteristic. Speaking about apartheid, what was your recollection of that time?

Marsh Naidoo: So I was born in the early seventies, and to be honest with you, it was a policy system in place that separated folks along racial lines. And we grew up in an Indian neighborhood. Our schooling was basically in an Indian neighborhood. The hospital my dad worked at as well was in that community.

Marsh Naidoo: So our exposure to folks that were different from us was limited so to speak. The college I went to as well was predominantly a college that was attended to by students of Indian heritage. I don’t know what to say about that, David. It was just the perspective and the lens of which we viewed the world.

Marsh Naidoo: So when things changed between ’90 to ’94, that was when Nelson Mandela was released from prison after 27 years of incarceration, and that was the move towards a government of national unity. So it was very turbulent. But I think growing up, our parents in a way did keep us insulated from the reality of apartheid. They provided us with our basic needs. I With our education. They helped us thrive in a perhaps not ideal environment, but that was it. That was the environment we grew up in.

David Hirsch: Thanks for sharing. Very interesting. And I’m thinking about other male influencers, and I’m wondering what, if any role model your grandfathers played first on your dad’s side and then on your mom’s side.

Marsh Naidoo: So my dad’s side my granddad was actually a banana farmer and his dad as well was basically a farmer. And an interesting story with that, David, was that they arrived as indentured laborers from India to work on the sugarcane fields along the Indian Ocean coast of South Africa. My granddad was very much, as I said, carried that hard work ethic.

Marsh Naidoo: And my mom’s dad was a kind of an entrepreneur. He owned a store or was a storekeeper and also carried that sense of work ethic.

David Hirsch: So I’m thinking about your education. You went to the University of Durban, now known as University of KwaZulu-Natal.

Marsh Naidoo: Yeah.

David Hirsch: And you took a degree in physical therapy. Where did your career take you from there?

Marsh Naidoo: Once I graduated, I went on a backpacking trip through Europe, and that’s when I ran into a bunch of girls from Wisconsin who were physical therapists themselves, and told me about the opportunities that were available in the States for internationally educated therapists to come and work. And that was something I was interested at the time. I was interested in that exploration and adventure and traveling. I applied for my visa and paperwork, was recruited by a company based out of Tulsa, Oklahoma, and that’s how I ventured over to the States. Worked here for at least 10 years before I moved back to South Africa, and that was when I met Prakash.

David Hirsch: Out of curiosity, you were the one that was graduated and then leaving South Africa to go to live in the US. Were your parents supportive of that or were they a little bit concerned for you?

Marsh Naidoo: You know what, David? My dad was very progressive, right? So he reared us up to be these independent women, but I doubt he thought that we would all venture out, so to speak, in that manner.

Marsh Naidoo: So broke the mold culturally of what girls were doing at that, or what women were doing at that time. So I don’t know if he was supportive at that time, but I think he grew to see that his girls were doing well and were progressing, living good lives and that, that support grew.

David Hirsch: And when you went back to South Africa and you met Prakash there, what drew you back to the United States?

Marsh Naidoo: So we lived together, set up home, and was in South Africa for basically about five years. With Kellen’s birth, we received a diagnosis of cerebral palsy 14 months later, and with my training knowing what rehabilitative services and were needed as well as services moving towards the future, I decided to come back to the States, David. That was a long process. Yeah.

David Hirsch: And how did you pick Dyersburg, Tennessee of all places.

Marsh Naidoo: What can I say, David. Dyersberg, Tennessee picked me. [giggling] Oh my word. Even when I was in South Africa for that five year period, I would always come back to work in the States intermittently, so I would not lose my US license.

Marsh Naidoo: And a dear friend of mine lives here in Dyersburg. I would actually fill in for him whilst he was away on vacation. So that way I got to work at least 48 weeks a year in the US. So we maintained that relationship and when Prakash and I decided to move back, Ed offered me a full-time job. So that’s how that move to Dyersburg happened.

David Hirsch: Excellent. And out of curiosity, what does Prakash do from a career perspective that he has the flexibility to be moving from country to country and following you?

Marsh Naidoo: I honestly think the flexibility comes from me being a healthcare provider. Prakash was exceptionally fortunate. He’s in quality management and he works in the manufacturing industry and honestly that’s been his second job. And, but when he came to the States it was almost a just walking into a good situation. He was able to gain employment about two weeks later. I just, it was, I strongly believe in fate. As I said, it was just a kind of divine intervention situation. So for him to find work in his field, in his industry was just, it was honestly a God send. So very appreciative of that.

David Hirsch: When I think of cerebral palsy, I think of it as being like a spectrum. There are individuals who have different levels of CP, some quite significant with very little mobility with their arms and legs and others that are not as significantly impacted. How would you characterize Kellen’s CP?

Marsh Naidoo: Cerebral Palsy? David, Kellen demonstrates his cerebral palsy as, its termed spastic triplegia, which means that both his legs and his right upper extremity are affected. As I said, knowing those factors that were in play in terms of his neurodevelopmental development, that would have caused him moderate to severe impairment in terms of his physical mobility and that would’ve related to his function.

Marsh Naidoo: Now we are about 10 years down the line. It’s been a awful lot of therapy, a awful lot of work, investment of time and resources, and his development to date is that he’s, he’s ambulant on a pair of crutches for about 80 to 90% of the time, and he uses a wheelchair for long distances. So that’s what his physical mobility looks like. As far as his function, he’s independent with his eating. He does need assistance with tasks such as bathing and toileting, and in terms of his cognition I would place him along the lines of having mild impairment. As far as his social ability is concerned, I would say he relates well to his peers and is placed at 10 years developmentally. So social and communication are his strong points.

David Hirsch: And has he been mainstream from an educational perspective or not?

Marsh Naidoo: That has been a long haul that initially started off in a special needs class and actually this year transitioned into general ed. And I’m really grateful for that opportunity. He’s thriving. At the beginning of the school year, he was on a grade one reading level, and within the last two months, he’s moved up a whole grade. He’s now reading at a grade two level. I strongly believe it’s all related to the expectation we have for our children with disabilities and what we expect from them, as well as, the early intervention and the support that he’s given in the school setting.

David Hirsch: Thanks for sharing. I would agree with you, and I think that even though you only have one child, oftentimes parents have a child with special needs, may have different expectations for that child versus their typical children. And the ones who I think are more well informed and are able to reflect on these things over a longer period of time. You want to hold all of your children to a pretty high expectation. So thanks for sharing.

Marsh Naidoo: Yes.

David Hirsch: So I wanna go back just a bit. Kellen’s diagnosis was made at about one and a half years of age. What were some of the fears that you and Prakash had at that time?

Marsh Naidoo: I think the fears were more aligned to, in terms of his mobility, that perhaps was the greatest fear. How would he navigate around and also his independence and obviously, like any parent first receiving such a diagnosis, your mind does go into a little bit of a tailspin. Is my kid going to go to college or is my kid going to drive? So those are some of the perhaps irrational thoughts that, that were initially there, but I think most of our fears were aligned to what would be his level of independence and how was he going to be able to navigate this world.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Was there some advice, good advice that you received that helped put things in proper perspective for you?

Marsh Naidoo: Oh my goodness. Now let me paraphrase my mom, David. So obvi [giggling], obviously there was, there’s a grieving process that then leads into acceptance. But the best advice came from my mom who said, you know what? Get on with it. You have a child to take care of, so get on with it and perform your role. So that was, yeah, that was the touch of reality that kind of shook my world initially, made me upset perhaps initially, but was what I needed at the time to, to get into action and to move forward.

David Hirsch: Were there some important decisions in addition to moving to the United States that you and Prakash have made that have benefited Kellen and put him on the path that he’s on?

Marsh Naidoo: Advocating for Kellen to move into mainstream education was a biggie. Just finding our voice as his parents, speaking for him when he’s not necessarily able to advocate for himself. I think that advocacy piece was a skill that we needed to learn for Kellen.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Not to focus on the negative, but what do you think the biggest challenges you’ve encountered are?

Marsh Naidoo: Mindset. And this all relates back to expectations. The challenge of not knowing how much to, and I hate using this word and, perhaps it’s not the best word to use, but how much to motivate your child. I’ve just seen a kind of a switch turn on more so this year than any other of him becoming a little bit more accountable for what needs to be done. We have a routine going on in the morning. When we wake up, there are specific things that we do in terms of getting our body ready for the day. I was the one perhaps leading that, whereas Kellen now is the one leading that with, with his accountability. And that’s what we want for his independence, right? So just seeing some of that motivation, some of those more intrinsic drivers coming on.

Marsh Naidoo: I’m just gonna share a little story here with you, David. We were, supposed to speak last week, but Wednesday was turned out not to be a good day because I’d blocked off time to actually go to the fair with Kellen as a chaperone in his class. I was excited because that’s usually the best day of the year, so to speak. And Kellen tells me the night or the day before, no mom, I don’t need you to come with me. And I’m like, what? [giggling] So, that was like a moment of euphoria yes, my son is his, my son is working towards his independence and also a tear jerking mommy moment. To me, it’s just amazing. It’s amazing seeing my child that was so dependent where we were immersed in each other’s lives. He needed me and for so many of his ADLs and now he’s moving on. As you said, that relates to any child. It’s awesome seeing them develop into their own people. Yeah.

David Hirsch: What I think I hear you saying is that it was a bittersweet moment. You’re really happy for him, but you’re sad that he’s getting that independence because you’ve been involved in so many aspects of his life.

Marsh Naidoo: Yep.

David Hirsch: And another phrase that comes to mind is that the umbilical cord is being stretched. And at some point, this is a good thing. He’ll be able to do things on his own and he won’t be relying on mom and dad. That’s the goal, and you have to keep that long term objective in mind.

Marsh Naidoo: David, as I told my husband, whatever, [giggling] oh, I know it. I know you guys are right, but I do. I do.

Tom Couch: We’ll be back with more of the conversation on the Special Fathers Network Dad to Dad podcast in just a few moments. But first this quick message. Please help 21st Century Dads gather research on families raising children with special needs by having them complete the Special Fathers Network Early Intervention Parents survey. A link to the survey can be found in the show notes. As a token of our appreciation, each person, mom or dad, who completes the survey, will receive a Great Dad Coin. Thank you. Now back to the conversation.

David Hirsch: What impact has Kellen’s situation had on your marriage or separately your extended family?

Marsh Naidoo: Initially, the first two years were just really rough as everything was concentrated and focused around Kellen and honestly just remem…, this is an Indian marriage, right? So there’s actually no alternates. The only separation basically in our minds is like death. So they were… I never at any point, and I, this was actually a discussion that Prakash and I had recently was that, we are committed to each other and we are committed to our son.

Marsh Naidoo: So in fact, I would say that our marriage has become stronger for it. On the opposite end of the scale, it is sad that we don’t see our extended family as often as we would like, especially with the last two years and our travel for everyone being limited, especially when it comes to seeing my dad as his health now fails.

Marsh Naidoo: That is what’s hard crushing right there. And Skype and Zoom and FaceTime is just not the same as seeing someone in person, is it? So that, that’s the heart wrenching part.

David Hirsch: So I’m thinking about supporting organizations and I’m wondering what organizations have you relied on for Kellen and your family?

Marsh Naidoo: Tri My Best is a triathlon that takes place annually. There are chapters that are based throughout the US and we participate at the event that’s held at Vanderbilt Hospital. And actually we have taken part in the one that’s at St. Louis Children’s Hospital as well. So David, it’s a , a day of biking, swimming and walking, whatever that entails, or wheelchair mobility. But it’s a day for kids to come together, buddy up with a typical peer and competitively race. And it’s cool to see the same kids coming back year after year and just see how they, they progress in developing. So that’s a neat organization.

David Hirsch: I love that one because you know that I’ve done probably a dozen and a half or two dozen triathlons, shorter distance ones like the Olympic distance, three half Ironmans and two Ironman triathlons. So I think it’s fabulous that Kellen is able to swim, bike, and run. Cuz I know a little something about triathlons, I’m wondering what’s the most challenging aspect and what’s the easiest for him.

Marsh Naidoo: Okay. Definitely the swimming, because that’s not something we get to do very often, to be honest. So how that works for Kellen is that he’s actually in a he’s actually has a float that he’s accompanied by. So it’s mostly his legs that he’s doggy paddling through. And I, it’s like basically a lap that he does. . And then the biking. He has an adapted bike. So that’s the beauty of it. It’s completing a race on his terms but completing it nonetheless.

David Hirsch: I love it. We’ll make sure that there’s information on Tri My Best triathlon in the show notes. Any other organizations that Kellen’s participated in?

Marsh Naidoo: The Tennessee Disability Coalition has been a huge help to us. Basically this is a member organization of 40 organizations. They very much keep an eye what’s happening on a legislative level within the state of Tennessee and parents and organizations that support persons of disabilities in informed of legislation that’s coming up that would impact us.

David Hirsch: There’s one other organization that works with horses, right?

Marsh Naidoo: Let me tell you about Healing Horses, which is a nonprofit organization here in Dyersburg, Tennessee, and their mission is to provide equine assisted therapy to persons of disabilities. Sonya Burks is the executive director and started this project about five years ago, David. She provides therapeutic horsemanship and kids partake in their lessons. She also meets the kids where they are at. So Kellen can very much sit unsupported on the horse, but they are sidewalkers available from a safety point of view. And he enjoys doing that on a Saturday morning bimonthly. So that’s another big part of our lives right there. The therapeutic horsemanship.

Marsh Naidoo: The biggest gain was his breath control and his vocal projection. Riding on a horse aligns your head to your trunk, to your pelvis and his optimal positioning for that lung expansion and just even like vocalization or the singing that Sonya does with him while he’s sitting in that aligned position is excellent for him developing that lung volume control and I mean that there has been pivotal for his speech and therefore his communication.

Marsh Naidoo: And can I tell you what the other fa… because I’m hoping that a parent that’s listening to this would find this beneficial. Besides the horse riding, Alexa has been an awesome tool for practicing speech. Don’t ask me how Prakash has done it, but he somehow set the volume on Alexa, so that Kellen has to hit a certain decibel before she’s activated to perform the command, play whatever song. So yeah, those are the little tips I have for therapy tools that have been effective and in our toolbox.

David Hirsch: Of the hundreds and hundreds of people I’ve interviewed, Marsh, this is the first time I’ve heard Alexa mentioned as a therapeutic tool. So it’s just another reminder that Amazon is everywhere in our thoughts.

Marsh Naidoo: It is David. It is.

David Hirsch: That’s just crazy, but in a good way, . Let’s talk about special needs beyond your own experience as a parent. I’d like to talk about Raising Kellen, the blog, the podcast, the organization. What’s the backstory? How did it begin and evolve in to what it is today?

Marsh Naidoo: In 2019, we visited our parents in South Africa and I presented at a conference, and the feedback I got from the therapist at the conference was, why don’t you put this information down in some format that parents could access, because this is some good stuff. It’s personable. It is, it’s something that parents could relate to, it’s practical information. So when I came back to the States in 2019, a friend of mine helped me with the technical aspects of blogging, and it took off from there. David.

Marsh Naidoo: [Marsh on her own podcast] Hi guys. Welcome to the Raising Kellen podcast. My name is Marsh Naidoo. And I blog at RaisingKellen.org where we curate resources for parents raising children with developmental delay and or disabilities. For those of you who are new to us, Welcome. This podcast and blog started off as a passion project in 2019.

Marsh Naidoo: As a mom and a physical therapist, I wanted to share the resources that I found beneficial in raising my son Kellen. As always, remember the information… [podcast fade out]

Marsh Naidoo: The podcast came about as a result of a young man that’s a mentor to Kellen that lives locally. And he’s Ms. Marsh, have you ever heard of podcasting? You’ve gotta get into this. I’m like, what? What is podcasting? And that young man Jake Box has just been really pivotal as well in everything we’ve done over the last few years . And that’s how the podcast came about, David.

David Hirsch: And you’ve got nearly a hundred episodes that you’ve done. When you reflect back on your podcast experience, not as a listener, but as a host, what are some of the thoughts that come to mind.

Marsh Naidoo: Just the persistence of keeping the episodes going. This is very much kind of a self-funded project and Prakash asked me, what are you, why are you doing this? And I’m like, look, do you remember ? Do you remember seven to eight years ago when we were pulling out our hair, trying to dig around and scrounge for information and how awful and vulnerable that stage of uncertainty felt like? Just reconnect with that. It is a lot of work, but it might just help one person and that’s honestly the whole motivation behind this podcast and the blog. It’s passing on what we found it’s beneficial in our journey. It’s not providing medical advice, David, but it’s just sharing our perspective.

David Hirsch: You are shining a light on some important and good things that people are doing, right? They’re not your stories, you’re just pointing out the good works of others. And I think it’s a really important aspect of what you do. And thank you again for your authenticity and transparency.

Marsh Naidoo: Yep.

David Hirsch: So where did the idea for the book, What I Wish I Knew Back Then, come from?

Marsh Naidoo: That creative process, David, is important for many reasons and one of them is, I think it’s also, it’s a way for you to de-stress and I love that the process of writing and how calming it is.

Marsh Naidoo: I’ve written quite a few essays, so I decided to just, to compile it into a book. However, this is just not about me, it’s about the other moms that I’ve, and relationships that I’ve developed through the blog. So the book itself has a contribution by me, but also contains the stories of three other moms that I’ve met through the blog.

Marsh Naidoo: So that’s how the idea evolved. To be honest with you, and what I’ve thought about doing is, adding to this book as Kellen grows older and inviting the other moms to add to it as well. And just to give the representation of what does disability mean. Disability still means loving your life and just to have that encouragement out there as well.

David Hirsch: I’m thinking about advice and I’m wondering what advice can you share with a parent, perhaps a specifically a dad who finds himself raising a child with special needs?

Marsh Naidoo: I think find your people would be the first thing. I think networking with other dads is crucial. We talked about support and not being alone, but finding a community of people walking the same journey. I think your and fyi David has not gotten me to say this, but really finding your community as such as the one that you provide where dads can gain this knowledge and information and I love the mentoring program. I just think, I think that’s crucial, getting your support network going.

Marsh Naidoo: The second thing I would say, David, is that in those initial years of trying to seek a diagnosis and run down the rabbit hole to find every single thing that, that you need to about the diagnosis, also try to focus. Give some efforts towards the early intervention because that day, in my opinion, is crucial to get that early intervention going as early as possible.

Marsh Naidoo: And so definitely community, early intervention ,and the third thing I would say is, just extend grace to your partner always. Just cultivate that loving relationship and model that for your child. As I said, when you speak to parents raising children with disabilities, yes it is. It’s a pressurized situation. It is. It’s difficult, but when we extend that grace to each other it does help lessen some of those stresses.

David Hirsch: I’m wondering if there’s anything else you’d like to say before we wrap up.

Marsh Naidoo: David, thank you for this opportunity to speak to your community. It’s been a absolute pleasure getting to know you over these last few months. And I definitely wanna extend a shout out to a dear friend of ours, Chris Krimitsos. Thank you so much for introducing me to David. Chris is a podcaster that’s based in Florida and he hosts Podfest Global or the Podfest Expo. So thank you to Chris for this introduction.

David Hirsch: Chris is an amazing podcaster. I think of him as one of the pillars or grandfathers of the podcasting movement, and particularly for those who are independent podcasters like you and me. I’ve attended his podfest events in the past, and I’ve always taken something away from those experiences, more so from the other people who are attending and who are so supportive of one another. So thank you, Chris, for all you do.

Marsh Naidoo: Absolutely.

David Hirsch: If someone wants to learn more about Raising Kellen or contact you, what’s the best way to do that?

Marsh Naidoo: Guys, y’all can reach me at RaisingKellen@gmail.com. That’s my email. That’s the best email to contact us at. The podcast is available on Apple, Spotify, and Google under Raising Kellen. So give us a listen sometimes.

David Hirsch: Marsh, thank you for your time and many insights. As a reminder, Marsh is just one of the individuals who’s part of the Special Fathers Network, a mentoring program for fathers raising a child with special needs. If you’d like to be a mentor father, or are seeking advice from a mentor father with a similar situation to your own, please go to 21stCenturyDads.org.

David Hirsch: Thank you for listening to the latest episode of the Special Fathers Network Dad To Dad Podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. As you probably know, the 21st Century Dads Foundation is a 501c3 not-for-profit organization, which means we need your help to keep our content free to all concerned.

David Hirsch: Would you please consider making a tax-deductible contribution? I would really appreciate your support. Marsh, thanks again.

Marsh Naidoo: Thank you, David. Have a great day.

Tom Couch: And thank you for listening to the Special Fathers Network Dad To Dad podcast. The Special Fathers Network is a dad to dad mentoring program for fathers raising children with special needs. Through our personalized matching process, new fathers with special needs children match up with mentor fathers in a similar situation. It’s a great way for dads to support other dads. To find out more, go to 21stCenturyDads.org.

David Hirsch: And if you’re a dad looking for help or would like to offer help, we would be honored to have you join our closed Facebook group. Please go to facebook.com, groups, and search “dad to dad”. Lastly, we’re always looking to share interesting stories. If you’d like to share your story or know of a compelling story, please send an email to David@21stcenturydads.org.

Tom Couch: The Special Fathers Network Dad To Dad podcast was produced by me, Tom Couch. Thanks again to Horizon Therapeutics, who believe that science and compassion must work together to transform lives. That’s why they work tirelessly to research, develop, and bring forward medicines for people living with rare and rheumatic diseases. Discover more about Horizon Therapeutics at HorizonTherapeutics.com.