395 – Mark Reinfeld of Boulder, CO A Chef, Author, Founder of Vegan Fusion Culinary Academy & Father Of A Son With Angelman

Transcript:

We all have a different landscape of challenges at what we’re dealing with

Mark Reinfeld: We all have a different landscape of challenges at what we’re dealing with. But all of us can agree that our idea of fatherhood has turned out to be quite different than what it actually is. And so identify moments where you’re having some sense of calm and that goes a long way, and then work on expanding that.

David Hirsch: That’s our guest this week, Mark Reinfeld, a, dad, an author and an acclaimed chef specializing in plant based cuisine. Mark is married to Ashley and they have two children, including Sage, 9, who has Angelman syndrome. And we’ll hear Mark’s family story on this special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast. Now say hello to the founder of the Special Fathers Network and host of the Dad to Dad Podcast, David Hirsch.

The Special Fathers Network Mastermind Group is free for the first 30 days

David Hirsch: Hi, I’m David Hirsch, host of the special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast. One brief message. The Special Fathers Network Mastermind Group experience is the most comprehensive program the 21st Century Dads foundation offers. Dads raising children with special needs, meet virtually on a weekly basis and form meaningful relationships while sharing weekly wins, discussing books, and sharing heartfelt challenges. The Mastermind Group is free for the first 30 days. Stop trying to figure out things on your own. I invite you to join one of the existing Special Fathers Network Mastermind groups. You’ll meet some extraordinary dads, exchange a lot of best practices, and, recharge your fatherhood battery for the journey ahead. It might just transform your life like it’s done for so many others. For more information, please see the show notes or Simply go to 21st centurydads.org.

David Hirsch: Now let’s listen in to this tasty conversation between Mark Reinfeld and David Hirsch.

Mark Reinfeld is an award winning chef and authority on plant based cuisine

David Hirsch: I’m thrilled to be talking today with Mark Reinfeld of Boulder, Colorado, who’s an award winning chef and authority on plant based cuisine. Chef Mark, as he’s known, is also the founding chef of the Vegan Fusion Culinary Academy. He is also the father of two young boys, including one with Angelman syndrome. Mark, thank you for taking the time to do a podcast interview for the special Fathers Network.

Mark Reinfeld: Thank you so much, David, for having me.

David Hirsch: You and your wife Ashley have been married for 10 years and are the proud parents of two boys, river, age 7, and Sage, age 9, who has Angelman syndrome. Let’s start with some background. Where did you grow up? Tell me something about your family.

Mark Reinfeld: So, I grew up in Stony Brook, New York. I was born in Manhattan, Lenox Hill Hospital in Manhattan, and then grew up in Stony Brook. I have two younger sisters. We all grew up there. I stayed in New York and went to college in, Albany, upstate, and was back and forth in the city after that.

David Hirsch: Are your sisters, still back in New York or where are they?

Mark Reinfeld: One of them is in Boulder, Colorado with her family, and one is in, Madison, Wisconsin with her husband.

David Hirsch: So you’ve each gone west? That’s what I can say, yes.

Mark Reinfeld: Definitely west. Not as far west as I have gone, but west from New York.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: You’re a little bit like a boomerang, right? Because I remember you telling me you went, to California and then you had a little stint in Hawaii, which we’ll get to. And then, you’re back, you know, sort of in the northwest.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: m. Who knows? Maybe you’re heading back to New York and you don’t even know it yet. But, I’m sort of curious to know. What does your dad do for a living?

Mark Reinfeld: my dad, Martin Leonard Reinfeld, was, involved in the insurance business growing up.

David Hirsch: And in what capacity?

Mark Reinfeld: he would do different capacity sales. For the. For the most part, that was his, primary role. He actually was, working as a teacher before he had kids, and he didn’t feel really connected to that. So he shifted over, around the time I was born.

David Hirsch: So he started out as an educator and moved to financial, services or insurance.

David Hirsch: Yes. Yep.

David Hirsch: And, did I remember on a prior conversation that you mentioned that you’re dad became sick while you were in college or something?

Mark Reinfeld: Yes, it was actually my junior year. Actually towards the end of my sophomore year of college, beginning of junior year, he. We found out he had. He had a. A, looked like a stroke. And then they found a tumor on his brain, which we did a scramble into Manhattan and brain surgeons, and they found a, like a growth that fortunately wasn’t a cancerous growth, but it took him down for a while. He, never fully recovered from that. He lived 11 years after that. But that was a defining moment.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, sorry to hear that. he had some of the struggles that he did later in life and that, you know, it sounded like he died at a relatively early age.

Mark Reinfeld: Yeah, see, I was the brain tumor. He was, 48 years old when that occurred. And then, he passed when he was 59. So I’m approaching 59 next year. So it’s

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Mark Reinfeld: more of a reality for me.

David Hirsch: Oh, yeah, I think that’s a. It’s like a milestone. Right? You know, am I going to live as long as my dad did? Yeah, because you never know. I mean, how important are the genetics and all this?

David Hirsch: Yep.

David Hirsch: And anyway, how would you describe your relationship with your dad?

Mark Reinfeld: it’s interesting. I. I didn’t feel, like, particularly close with him growing up. It was not like, animosity or anything. But then when he became ill, something shifted and we both started prioritizing, like, connecting and working on a relationship. And I actually had moved to California, for a little while, and then he. When he started getting really sick, I moved back home. And I had about a year or so home helping my mom out. And during that time, we got extremely close. I feel like we had the opportunity to work through anything that we had prior to that. So it was. I think it was very healing for. For both of us.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well, it’s important that, you were there, you know, even if it was just for the last year or so. Not only for your mom’s benefit, but, you know, for his benefit and maybe your own benefit.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: If you look back on it.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: There’s some closure there. And, you know, life is unpredictable.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: You know, we don’t know how much time we have or, what our health’s going to be for that matter, with whatever time we do have.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

When you reflect on your relationship with your dad, was there an important takeaway

David Hirsch: And I’m wondering, when you reflect on your relationship with your dad, was there, like, an important takeaway or two lesson learned that, you know, you’ve tried to capture in your own parenting?

Mark Reinfeld: That’s a great question. I do think of my dad often, and sometimes it’s when I act in a positive way towards my kids and sometimes in a not so positive way when I see my dad. So it’s, definitely illuminating going from, you know, just having a father to being a father. And I think I prioritize one on one time with the kids. And, like, I’ve taken my son river camping a couple of times, and I never had that type of relationship with my dad growing up. So those are the big takeaways. And then if I do see maybe a pattern that I subconsciously took on from him that I don’t want to pass on, then I’m aware of that, too.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well, the way I phrase that, very insightful, is that you want to emulate.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: The things that your parents got right. And m. Then if you can live vicariously through the things that you would just as soon not do as a parent yourself.

David Hirsch: Right.

Mark Reinfeld: Yeah, totally.

David Hirsch: Anyway, thanks for sharing.

Relationship you had with your grandfathers first on your dad’s side

I’m wondering what, if any, relationship. Relationship you had with your grandfathers first on your dad’s side.

Mark Reinfeld: So, on my dad’s side, Herbert Reinfeld, he was in A lawyer in the insurance business. they lived in Park Chester, New York, and the Bronx. And so I remember going there and spending time with them. They would. We would come out to Stony Brook. And I just remember him just being very sweet. I have one memory of him saying, I don’t know how old I was, but he, like, told me how important it was to, like, go to the bathroom every day. Like a sweet conversation. So he was very tender and sweet, Sweet loving presence.

David Hirsch: And how about your maternal grandfather?

Mark Reinfeld: They were pretty polar opposites. My mom’s father, Benjamin Bimstein, he was a renowned chef and ice carver. A very eccentric character. And he was carving ice and till his dying days, in his 80s, from a wheelchair with a oxygen tank on and a chainsaw. And he did something for Queen Elizabeth’s coronation. He was awarded, like, chef of the Year from his local American Culinary Federation chapter. And one of his signature accomplishments was he did a life size Michelangelo David out of ice for a club in Fort Lauderdale. So he also got me my first job up at the Concord Hotel as a waiter. He was just very. In the restaurant and food world, so that. That was the biggest initial culinary influence I had.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: Well, it sounds like your grandfathers were totally different.

Mark Reinfeld: Yes.

David Hirsch: And this image that I have of this 80 year old somebody with a wheelchair and oxygen and a chainsaw, it just seems like a. Like a recipe for disaster.

David Hirsch: Right?

Mark Reinfeld: Yeah, it’s like over the top. Don’t. Don’t hit the cord.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well, if you told me that he had a cigarette in his mouth, you know, be like, oh, Jesus, this is just.

Mark Reinfeld: He might have.

David Hirsch: Well, thanks for sharing.

Anybody else that comes to mind, beyond your dad and your grandfathers, that played an influential role

Anybody else that comes to mind, beyond your dad and your grandfathers, that played an influential role either as a young guy, or maybe as a young adult, for that matter.

Mark Reinfeld: I remember in elementary school having a fifth grade teacher that was influential.

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Mark Reinfeld: Mr. Lucados. He was so passionate and loved what he did. Like, I wanted to be like an elementary school teacher when I grew up. He was so enthusiastic. And then in college, probably the most significant, pivotal relationship was with my philosophy of religion professor that I had senior year, Robert Garvin, who. Who really, I would say, opened my eyes to how important it is to live in the present moment and be joyful and follow your heart and see life as he was in, like, I’d say, the Joseph Campbell school of thought. So, like the great hero adventure, where, you know, going on quests and journeys and inner journeys to bring back treasures. And he’s very motivating for me to the to this day, I still have his recordings from his classes, and they’re very deep, deep wisdom.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well, what a blessing it is to, have people like, Robert Garvin play an influential role in your life. And maybe a note at the time, but you don’t really fully appreciate it until much later. And, you can reflect on that. I think of them at some level as being like the angels in our lives. Not like your personal angel.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: But, you know, somebody that, you know, poured in to you and maybe a lot of others. Right. Just with their way of doing things.

Mark Reinfeld: Definitely.

David Hirsch: And how influential that is.

David Hirsch: Yeah, yeah.

Mark Reinfeld: My friend and I in the class, we’d be like, just. Tears would be streaming down our eyes, taking notes, and he would just be speaking from this place of, like, surprising that he’s talking to a bunch of college kids. Like, just some really deep, deep wisdom.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: That’s amazing.

You went to University at Albany, took a BA in philosophy

So my recollection was you went to University at Albany, took a BA in philosophy. You also spent a year at the London School of Economics. Where did you see your career taking you?

Mark Reinfeld: Well, I was initially pre law, so I applied to law schools. I was waitlisted at Harvard and University of Pennsylvania. I got into a few schools, but I had spent that year at the London School of Economic Economics and was taking classes in, like, metaphysics and epistemology and business. And that year really awakened something in me with the traveling. So I. After I applied to the law schools, I deferred admission, and New York University allowed me to defer admission. So I was pretty set on my career as a lawyer. And possibly I was looking into environmental and human rights law, but I was definitely on the law track. And then that changed after my year of traveling. After I took that year off and I mentioned I was in Berlin when the Wall came down. I was in Prague during the revolution. I was having all these amazing experiences that didn’t. Law school lost its kind of appeal for me. And so after one semester, I had just like, a moment of like, what do I want to do with my life? Am I going to just pursue this because I’m on that track and financial security and stability? Or do I keep that momentum going of reading Walt Whitman and experimenting with freedom and the joy I was feeling? So I moved out to California and started working in a, kitchen at that point. And that’s where I reconnected with the love of cooking that I always had as a child.

Your mom was a home baker and your grandfather was a chef

David Hirsch: So was your mom like this amazing chef and she was the one, or was it your grandfather on your Mom’s side.

Mark Reinfeld: My grandmother on my dad’s side was a baker. I mean, just a home baker, but she had all the, like, the squeezed bottles for the frostings. And I still remember her scraping, like, the top of a teaspoon with baking soda to, like, measure it with the back of a butter knife. And so being in the kitchen was always very calming and grounding for me. So I would cook with my mom and my grandfather, and so a combo, I would say.

David Hirsch: Okay.

David Hirsch: Just curious.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

So you mentioned you, uh, were in California, and I’m wondering what

David Hirsch: So you mentioned you, were in California, and I’m wondering what was it that, you know, sort of stuck.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: that got you on the path that you’re on?

Mark Reinfeld: Well, so I was working in a natural food store in San Diego called, Jimbo’s, and I started. They had two positions open, a bagger or a dishwasher. And I had always loved cooking, so I took the dishwasher position. I fed my manager on my first day, and then the next day, I was promoted out of dishwashing to prepping and just started. I was living in California. It was a new experience. So I just got into a rhythm of I was able to bike to work and work in the different positions. After a few years of doing that, I branched off, actually did a silent retreat after that for a little while, and found myself back in the kitchen. Surprisingly, I got back into, like, a managerial role,

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Mark Reinfeld: and, then I just branched off at that point. This was, like, the late 90s. In Malibu, California, I started a personal chef and consulting service called the Blossoming Lotus. So that was when that all. All began.

David Hirsch: That was in Malibu.

Mark Reinfeld: Yes. So that was Pacific Coast Greens was the name of the health food store there. And I. The owner was vegetarian, and the GM was vegetarian, but none of the cooking staff were. So they hired me to create a vegan recipe manual and chef training. And so that set the prototype that I did. Actually, I did several corporate consulting projects after that before going to Hawaii.

David Hirsch: So my first, understanding about Malibu was when my middle daughter, Emily, went to Pepperdine.

David Hirsch: Uh-huh.

David Hirsch: And I’m like, this does not seem like a real school.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: You’re up on this hill looking over the Pacific Ocean. This is, like, where you would go on vacation, right?

Mark Reinfeld: Totally.

David Hirsch: And, you know, she was talking about taking surfing lessons. I’m like, are you sure this is where you want to go to school? And she had the most amazing experience at, Dufferdine.

Mark Reinfeld: Yeah, it’s beautiful.

David Hirsch: We really looked forward to visiting with her while she was on campus. And then you might Know this about Pepperdine. The sophomore class for the most part goes to one of the six or seven Pepperdine, campuses around the world. So most of the sophomore class goes abroad.

David Hirsch: Wow.

David Hirsch: And she couldn’t figure out, you know, if she should go to China because she had been fluent in Mandarin coming out of high school.

Mark Reinfeld: Wow.

David Hirsch: Or if she should go to Buenos Aires, because she was also fluent in Spanish.

David Hirsch: Whoa.

Mark Reinfeld: Amazing.

David Hirsch: And, the advisor said, well, why don’t you do both? And she said, you can do that? She said, well, most students can’t because they don’t speak both languages. But so she went to, Shanghai in the fall, beginning of her sophomore year. And then she, you know, switched to go to Buenos Aires in the spring. And we use that, the rest of us, my wife and our other four kids as opportunities, or reasons to go visit Emily in Shanghai and then in Buenos Aires. So we, we were like drafting off of Emily’s Pepperdine experience. And anyway, sorry to go down that tangent.

Mark Reinfeld: No, that’s incredible.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

You went to Hawaii on a two week vacation and stayed for eight years

David Hirsch: Anyway, you went from, Southern California. My recollection was you were there on a two week holiday or something and you ended up staying for like eight years or something like that.

Mark Reinfeld: I, I went to Kauai, Hawaii as that’s where I went on a two week vacation. And there was this group of people turning an Internet cafe into. They wanted to do a vegan cafe. And I had all this menu and recipe development experience and chef training experience. So we formed at that time the Blossoming Lotus Cafe. And then we opened a restaurant and started publishing books. So that two week vacation, I believe I stayed over eight years on the island before moving. So it was pretty long two week vacation. But I worked more than I had ever worked at any point in my life too.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, I’ve only been to Kauai once, Maui a little bit more. But, you know, it’s like nowhere else in the United States, that’s for sure.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: And talk about, you know, vacation spots.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: And if you can find a good gig like it sounds like you did.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: And you, you know, grew this business. Was that where the vegan Fusion World Cuisine was?

Mark Reinfeld: Or so that was the first cookbook that we did. We have, I have eight published cookbooks. And the first one was Vegan Fusion World Cuisine. And it has a Forward with, Dr. Jane Goodall. And it summed up like this philosophy that it’s looking at not only the cuisines from around the world, but also the wisdom and the sacred sites and the beauty. And so it was really an expression of all that. And the co author, Beau Rinaldi had also been a world traveler. So we have a lot of shared travel and love of wisdom quotes and sacred sites. So that’s the first book that set off the cookbook publishing.

David Hirsch: That’s simply amazing. maybe for, a deeper dive in another conversation. But, my recollection was this has, led to a lot of different opportunities with Google and Whole Foods and Kroger and Dannon and, you know, so many other organizations. And, was that the precursor to what you’re doing now with the Vegan Fusion Culinary Academy?

Mark Reinfeld: So the consulting has always been part of my path. I love working with chefs who are competent in their field but not familiar with plant based foods. So back in the late 90s, people didn’t know the difference between tofu and tahini. And so there’s a lot of new trainings that I did in different settings. And at that time I started. We closed the restaurant in 2008 during the downturn and I started offering these 10 day cooking immersions all through the Hawaiian

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Mark Reinfeld: islands and different parts of the states and five day trainings in Europe and around the states. And after doing that for a few years, we met a couple that wanted to open a cooking school. So that was the Vegan Fusion Culinary Academy. We opened and closed a few years ago. So since then Vegan Fusion is the brand and company has been around since 2004 I believe. So it’s taken a lot of different permutations, but that’s primarily what I run the business under is, Vegan Fusion.

David Hirsch: Gotcha. Well, there are still people, not in the late 90s, but today that don’t know the difference between tofu and tefini. And I would be one of those. So. And I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one, Mark. I’m just saying. So anyway, thanks for sharing. it’s amazing.

Mark Reinfeld: Well, tofu is a soybean based patty that’s used as a plant protein and tahini is a creamy sesame butter paste from the Mideast.

David Hirsch: Okay, well, I guess what you’re referring to is that there are some chefs that didn’t know the difference between the two.

Mark Reinfeld: Yes, totally. Yeah.

David Hirsch: As opposed to pedestrians.

Mark Reinfeld: Civilians.

David Hirsch: Civilians.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: Thanks for sharing.

How did you and Ashley meet? I was married on Kauai

So I’m sort of curious to know, how did you and Ashley meet?

Mark Reinfeld: I was married on Kauai and separated on Kauai around the time a little bit after the restaurant closed. and then I spent a couple, of years, just reconnecting with myself, traveling back through Europe again. I was traveling quite a bit then, doing these trainings. And so Ashley and I met in Portland in 2012 during one of my workshops.

David Hirsch: So she just attended one of your workshops?

Mark Reinfeld: She. Yeah. she volunteered and got more than she bargained for.

David Hirsch: I would say that of all the volunteers, she got the gold ring, right? Yeah, Literally, the gold ring.

Mark Reinfeld: We’ll have to ask her if she. Hopefully she thinks that.

David Hirsch: Okay, well, thanks for sharing.

Prior to Sage’s diagnosis, did you or Ashley have any connection to disability

Let’s talk about, your journey as a parent. I’m sort of curious to know. Prior to Sage’s diagnosis, did you or Ashley have any connection to the world of disability or the special needs community?

Mark Reinfeld: Both of us had worked with the community in some capacity, and, like, I’d say they’d be like, community connector type activities now, bringing members of the community out into the larger community. And I, was at a residential center in Boulder for a little bit, a few months. And in New York, it was a facility that they would come to and we would take them out in the community, but it wasn’t. They didn’t live there. So, yeah, had that special connection, I guess both of us did.

Sage’s diagnosis is Angelman syndrome which affects 1 in 15,000

David Hirsch: Okay, what is Sage’s diagnosis and how did it come about?

Mark Reinfeld: His diagnosis is, Angelman syndrome, which is a rare genetic, condition apparently affecting 1 in 15,000 births. But I seems like it’s less common than that. Since he was our first child, we never noticed anything. We didn’t really have a reference point as far as milestones. And, he was colicky and kept us up at night a lot. But we just thought, you know, he would grow out of it. And then when we, like, started realizing we wanted to be around family, my family was here in the Boulder area, and Ashley’s is in, Baton Rouge, Louisiana. So we decided to move out here to Colorado. And then when we went to his first pediatrician’s visit, he was saying, you know, they did that, the developmental test, and they thought he was falling behind. And one of the questions was, like, can you put a raisin, you know, through a Cheerio? And I was like, we haven’t tried that, you know. So we went back again a few months later, and then he says, you know, it looks like you may want to contact early intervention. So we did that. And then we made an appointment with developmental, pediatrics for an assessment in Denver. Took about six months to get that appointment. And then they thought that it was autism. He was somewhere on the spectrum. But that never felt really right. And so they, we did some further genetic testing and it landed on chromosome 15, which could be either Prader Willi or Angelman were the two they presented. Although there’s other chromosome 15, syndromes. And everyone thought it was Prader Willi. So we like dove into the Prader Willie world, went to conferences, and then finally got into a clinic they had at Children’s for Prader Willie. We saw like six specialists. We did all the exams. And then the last specialist was a geneticist. And he looked at him and he said, this is not Prader Willie. You need to go back and do a test. And then

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Mark Reinfeld: he said, I think it’s Angelman. And I didn’t really know anything about Angelman besides multiple seizures. It was a multiple seizures part which he hadn’t had. So we, we didn’t consider it. But then I remember googling it and it’s like no speech. And that was like the big, you know, the whole ride of once you feel like there’s something’s going to be a diagnosis, but then what? The. The non verbal part was like a big. That was a huge blow. So that, that set us off on like the Angelman path.

David Hirsch: So it sounds like a rather circuitous route to get to Angelman.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: Autism brought her Willie and then a number of years, into it, you know, to get the official diagnosis.

David Hirsch: Yep.

David Hirsch: And do you feel like now that you have the diagnosis you’ve got a little bit sort of clearer path as a result, or not?

Mark Reinfeld: I guess so. I mean it’s, it’s a two edged sword, I think because we were very hesitant to even get a diagnosis at first. We’re just like, he is who he is. We don’t want to have a label. And then they’re like, well, you get services. It could help if you have a diagnosis. Narrowing it down ultimately I would say is helpful because it gives you like a landscape though with Angelman it’s like a spectrum. And so SAGES subtype is only he’s in a 3 percentile of what his specific subtype is, a uniparental daisomi. And there’s other categories and they all present pretty differently. So it’s. Overall, I’d say it’s helps us understand a lot more, I would say.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: well, thank you for being so open and authentic about it. Maybe it’s easier to talk about now, you know, with a little bit of the passage of time.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: That fork in the road diagnosis, no diagnosis, you know, M. Nobody wants their kid to be labeled.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: yeah. And you know, it’s more in the parents minds, right? It’s a, like a psychological decision. It’s like almost an ego. Ego thing.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: I don’t want a kid with a label. M and then you get into it and I can’t say, you know, this is what everybody thinks or believes is that, you know, once you know what it is, you know, now you’ve got more effects.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: You can get the resources that you know, are, are necessary. And you know, like you said, it’s a spectrum.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: Nobody knows exactly how things are going to pan out. And you know, you just want to advocate as best you can. And you can be in denial, which I think is what people want to be like, I’m not going to put a label on my kid.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: I’m in denial that my kid has something.

David Hirsch: Right? Yeah.

David Hirsch: Or you can just embrace it and just say, hey, you know, everybody has something.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: You know, this just happens to have a name associated with it. And you know, if it gives us access to resources that we wouldn’t otherwise have, you know, that can be beneficial for my son or daughter or for our family, then hey, bring it on.

David Hirsch: Right?

David Hirsch: Yeah.

Every parent has their own journey with Angelman, I think

Mark Reinfeld: That’s ultimately where we landed. And it is true. I, I mentioned I’ve participated in dad’s groups and locally here, and there’s some that like, they don’t have a diagnosis or it’s like they were 1 in 500 or known cases. And I mean Angelman is. It’s a tough pill to swallow for me. But there is comfort in organizations and a community that’s built around it. And so yeah, I would say every parent has their own like, journey with that. And I think we’re. January will be like five years into the diagnosis of Angelman. So we’re starting to, you know, get our bearings with it.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well, thanks for like I said, being so open and authentic about it.

Have the fears changed pre diagnosis to post diagnosis? How would you explain that

I’m thinking about fears and I’m wondering, have the fears changed pre diagnosis to post diagnosis? How would you explain that or talk about it?

Mark Reinfeld: That’s a great question. Pre diagnosis I was just like, everyone’s on their own path. He’s just, you know, he’s just on his own path. His developmental curve is just different than others. Slower, than getting the diagnosis, I guess. It’s interesting just seeing how in this community there’s a medical side of the equation, like a, medical emergencies and surgeries and hospitals and medical interventions and there’s like a Stress and concern and fear around that. And then there’s the behavioral side of things, which may not necessarily be medical. Angelman kind of has a foot in both doors a little bit. Like a lot of kids do have seizures and we have. The more we’re in the community, we do hear of kids unfortunately losing their lives and for different reasons.

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Mark Reinfeld: So it’s. I think it’s kind of the background noise. I feel like as a dad, I process that a little different than Ashley. I think that is more of a tangible thing for her. I’m, like try to have positive spins when I can as my like default setting. So I try to just kind of surrender those fears when they come up.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, it it’s a slippery slope. And it’s not like you do this and they go away. You know, it’s like waves almost. Things come in waves M. And you know, if you have a way of dealing with it or, you know, somehow mitigating the impact of those waves, you know, that’s a healthy thing.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: But, you know, it’s hard to be in denial. Especially like you said, if there’s families that you’ve gotten to know that have kids with angel men and their child passes away, it’s like, yeah, right. It takes the wind out of you.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Yeah.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: To think that, you know, life is that fragile.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: You know, I hope that’s not our destiny.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: So thanks for opening up about that.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: was there any advice you got? Specific or just general advice that has helped put the situation in perspective?

Mark Reinfeld: It’s interesting, I think, because I had a, ah, like I would say try to have a spiritual focus before this occurred, that a lot of the, the tools, like the mental tools, like I feel like maintaining mental health and to me keeping our mind in a positive headspace is really important. One of the, and I touch on this in the book, but like one of the big things that could send you down pretty far is like when you compare your situation to others. And I know I’m prone to that and especially with the, the diagnosis. And I remember, well, one of the quotes I like is comparison is the thief of joy quote. But then one of the therapists, the early intervention therapists, she said compare, and despair. And so that’s one of the tools I use to remind myself because I think like the grief of a special needs parenting, it’s not like mourning a death type grief. It’s like, can keep coming up over and over. And so I think comparison is one of Those triggers for people. So that. That was one little pearl that I got.

David Hirsch: Oh, yeah. It’s a really important one. and it’s not like you said, once you get a diagnosis, you sort of grieve, you know, maybe at that time.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: Thinking or anticipating, you know, maybe, you know, things aren’t going to be all right based on the information that, you know, you’re getting or that you’re seeking. You know, especially if you do these Google searches, which are, you know, good and bad. Right. It’s better to know something, but you don’t want to know everything.

Mark Reinfeld: The worst.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: And, you know, you want to be an advocate, you want to educate yourself, but at some point, you know, it’s not advantageous. yeah. And, you know, it’s not just in the special needs community, you know, that, you know, the comparison is not a healthy situation.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: And, but I think it’s more profound in the disability community. And, you know, it’s a lifelong thing.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: You’re going to be reminded, you know, as your kids get older, you know, from teenagers to, you know, beyond that there are certain things that they can do and can’t do.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: But hopefully you just become more accepting of those things and it’s not as important as it was maybe when you were younger.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: The value or the importance that you placed on it, you know, early on, you know, it’s like, what was I thinking?

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: Why was I so upset or, concerned about certain things.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

Mark Reinfeld: When they did think it was autism, they give you, like, this welcome book, and I remember it was like one of the first pages. It’s like, well, the dreams for your child are dead, so. And I was like, oh, my God. That’s like, who wrote that? You know, so it’s like, it’s interesting. I wasn’t even thinking that. But then they’re like, it was. Yeah. So I think it is adjusting to a lot of levels, just like inner resilience and just trying to re. Get up when you fall down type of thing.

David Hirsch: Absolutely.

David Hirsch: We’ll be back with more of the conversation on the Special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast in just a few moments. But first, this quick message. Please help 21st Century Dads gather research on families raising children with special needs by having them complete the special Fathers Network Early Intervention Parents survey. A link to the survey can be found in the show notes. As a token of our appreciation, each person, mom or dad, who completes the survey will receive a great dad coin. Thank you.

What have been some of the biggest challenges related to Sage’s care

Now back to the conversation.

00:35:00

David Hirsch: So not to focus on the negative. But what have been some of the biggest challenges you’ve encountered related to Sage’s care?

Mark Reinfeld: I mean, the behavioral stuff has been hard. Like, some of it is with specific to Angelman. Like, there’s a propensity, for hair pulling, which, he doesn’t do out of aggression, but I think just as a way to connect. So we have to keep guard of our younger son to make sure. I mean, he does get him. And it’s hard to witness and to know that it’s not his fault. Because you’re natural. You’re kind of. Every instinct in you is like, that’s an act of aggression or, you know, so it’s. It’s hard to manage that and then just, to be totally forthright. Like, the. The potty training side of things has been a very significant challenge over the. The last several years. So, we try to bring humor into it when we can. And just like one of the other, just to kind of flip it into. Turn those challenges into something is another one of the tools that I bring out in the book is this idea of, like, not being the only one going through this. And that. That’s where I think community really plays a role. And, specifically in the zoom, calls that we do for Angelman dads, where there’s a similar landscape and similar challenges. I get solace and comfort from that through. Through those challenges.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well, again, thanks for being so open and authentic. You know, it’s. It’s tough.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: You know, there’s these things that, You think, how hard could it be, like, to limit that behavior.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: Or to teach somebody and how to be potty trained and, M. It seems like could be overwhelming.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: At some point.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

Mark Reinfeld: If you had talked to me before I had kids, especially special needs kids, and if you said, are you, like, a patient guy? I would be like, oh, yeah, I’m patient. Or like, are you angry guy? I’m like, oh, no, no, no. Minimal anger. Pretty patient. And now it’s like, I think you had mentioned that, like, it’s a humbling experience. I’ve seen parts of myself that I guess I needed to see related to that.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: Well, parts that you might not recognize or not want to recognize. Right.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: You know, there’s, there’s some education going on, and sometimes it’s like taking medicine.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: It doesn’t taste very good.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: And, but, you know, you’re a better person. You’re more insightful, more empathetic. And, you know, certainly not judgmental about others.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: You know, who am I to judge?

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: What’s going on in somebody else’s family, for God’s sake?

Mark Reinfeld: Totally. Exactly.

David Hirsch: So I’m sort of wondering what impact these challenges have had on his younger brother, your marriage, the, extended family, for that matter.

Mark Reinfeld: It’s. So I keep referring to the book that I recently, I’m working on, just because I call those like the hotspots. So I think they’re common, like my mental health, the mental health of Ashley, independent of me, and then the strain on the marriage, the sibling interaction. So with the sibling, it’s. It’s definitely a challenge. You know, I know of people that had a seriously disabled child and a sibling, and they kind of blew the other sibling off as like the normal one or the healthy one. And then later in life, that child is having significant issues. So I think really prioritizing everybody’s mental health is important, and sometimes it’s heartbreaking and there’s really not much to do about it. If he says he wishes his brother could talk or he wanted a normal brother, why can’t, you know, I have a normal brother? And so we try to just honor what he’s feeling and acknowledge it and spend one on one time with him. And also we do, play therapy. There’s a therapist in town that does play therapy. So just to try to distinguish, like, what is typical of a six, or seven year old and what is developing because of, you know, his brother. So I think it’s a substantial defining factor as far as family. I don’t think anyone really could know exactly what it’s like unless they’re in the situation. So we have loving and supportive family members. And it’s also, unless you’re in it, it’s really tricky for you to grasp, like, the scope of what, what we’re dealing with.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, thanks for again, being open about that.

The Angelman Syndrome foundation has been really pivotal for our family

I’m thinking about supporting organizations that you or your families relied on. We talked a little bit about Angelman Syndrome Foundation. What role has that played?

Mark Reinfeld: So the Angelman Syndrome foundation has been

00:40:00

Mark Reinfeld: really pivotal. And I do encourage people if they do have a diagnosis, and there’s community or nonprofits, or any organizations around it to get involved. We were pretty incognito. Like, I wasn’t on any Facebook groups. I was keeping it pretty much to ourselves. And then, there was an Angelman Syndrome foundation conference in Austin. It was like three years ago over the summer. And so we connected with them and they have Like a family fund that like they’ll pay for people to go to the conference. You could submit to them for equipment and gear and things like that. So they play a major role in education and also support. I reached out to them after the organization, after the conference and asked about connecting with other dads and offered to help facilitate, ah, a zoom monthly or so Zoom call. So it’s played a major role, I would say. And then early intervention services here. Imagine was the name. They had the therapist come into the home and that was definitely needed support. We’re grateful to be in Colorado. We feel like there’s a lot of support available to us here.

So you’ve been a prolific author, mostly in the culinary world

David Hirsch: So you’ve been a prolific author, mostly in the culinary world like you had mentioned previously.

David Hirsch: Yes.

David Hirsch: Eight cooking books. I want to spend just a minute more about the culinary book, but I want to focus on this book that’s coming out, this Islands of Peace, Navigating the world of Special Needs parenting. So I’m thinking about your eight culinary books. Is there a favorite one that you’d recommend above all the others to pedestrians like myself?

Mark Reinfeld: so I would say depending on what you’re looking for. The last book I did with my wife, Ashley Boudet, she’s a plant based naturopathic doctor, is called the Ultimate Age Defying Plan. What’s nice about that book is all the recipes have seven ingredients or less, which I set as a challenge for myself. And it also looks at the nutrients that our body needs to support our different systems like cardiovascular, neurological, bone structure, all that and then what foods provide those nutrients. So it’s pretty comprehensive guidelines. But Healing the Vegan Way is the one I did prior to that that really lays out the case for a plant based diet as addressing a lot of the significant health challenges that we’re facing, including heart disease, diabetes, high cholesterol, certain forms of cancer. And it has contributions from some of the leading medical doctors and nutritionists in the plant based world. So either of those two, I would say are good, good starters.

David Hirsch: Okay, I’ll make sure to put some information about that in the show notes.

Mark Reinfeld: If you like soups. I have, I did four books that are in the 30 Minute Vegan series. one of which was 30, Minute M Vegan Soups on if you like soups. And I promote that one as Vegan soups for the Chicken Soul.

David Hirsch: Chicken Soup line of books.

David Hirsch: Right?

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: Out of curiosity, which one of the books has sold the most?

Mark Reinfeld: I think our first book still has sold the most. Vegan Fusion World Cuisine. We self published that and that’s followed by, I’d say the original 30 minute vegan book.

David Hirsch: Okay, well thanks for sharing.

David is working on a book about special needs parenting that’s coming out soon

So you’ve been working on this book that’s unlike all the other books that you’ve written. the title of which is Islands of Navigating the World of Special Needs Parenting with a foreword by Amanda Moore, who’s the CEO of Angelman Syndrome Foundation. when is it coming out? What’s the backstory?

Mark Reinfeld: So we originally self published our first book, but then we went with the publisher. All the other books were major publishing houses. And now I think the self publishing world has evolved to the point where it’s a good opportunity for authors. So I’m hoping before the holidays to be able to make that available. And it came about a year ago or year and a half. I started when I was really struggling in my moments of struggling with the challenges of the special needs world and life. Like I mentioned, like keeping a. You’re really observing where you’re going with your thoughts and noticing if they’re taking you in a direction that’s bringing you more despair

00:45:00

Mark Reinfeld: and sadness or hope and acceptance. So I had this. Some of these things that I would say to myself like the compare and despair or I’m not the only one going through this or carpe diem, things that like I would say in my mind like one of being like ah, the space between a stimulus and response and that I could choose my response. So these tools that I had that I was using and then I had a list of them and I started elaborating on them. And then five months or so ago I just was realizing that like these micro moments of not being overwhelmed or getting pummeled by life that I tried to like say like, okay, this is a moment where I’m not in that like chaos or catastrophe mode and to really savor it and appreciate. And I just came the idea of referring to that as like an island of peace. And then so it kind of been percolating in me and a friend suggested just like bringing that more to life. And so that that’s how that it kind of kick started it. And he said do it as like a meaning making endeavor. And so a lot of my journey in the special needs world has been trying to like take the suffering and the pain that I feel during the process and trying to turn it into something that could be beneficial for others and healing for myself.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well it sounds like it has been cathartic at some Level, Right?

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: Therapeutic. I just want to say thank you for taking the time.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: You know, life’s pretty busy. Very few people have the time to put their thoughts into writing and to share.

David Hirsch: Yeah, right.

David Hirsch: With the purpose of helping others who might be struggling alongside or people that you’ll never know, maybe never meet for that matter. And, I want to say thank you also for sharing an advanced copy, that I was able to review and I can’t wait till it comes out.

Mark Reinfeld: Thank you, David.

David Hirsch: So maybe we’ll do a follow up interview, a year, a couple years down the road and, be able to look back as opposed to look forward.

David Hirsch: Right.

Mark Reinfeld: It’s a good phrase.

So you’ve talked a little bit about these, uh, dad groups

David Hirsch: So you’ve talked a little bit about these, dad groups that you’ve been involved with. one with the Angelman Dads, which are virtual. That’s what I understand. You meet once a month or so. And how would you compare that group that you’ve been leading to the other group that’s more of a local group of dads with this, friend who has a child with down syndrome that, you know, you meet on more of a face to face basis, monthly as well.

Mark Reinfeld: Yeah, we meet the second Friday of every month at a rotating venue. It’s been great. I think we have about 70 dads on the list right now and we have good turnout. Usually it’s pretty casual. We start, everyone just kind of settles in. It’s usually at a restaurant or a pub or something. And then once it looks like everyone’s there, we’ll just do a brief intro round of saying, I like to say, like, you know what, what brought you here, what you’re dealing with, with your child, and then any wins or challenges that come up and it’s a really nice time for people to share. If they’re not feeling like sharing, they could just do a super brief intro, but then it’s just kind of a bunch of guys hanging out and I think that there’s a lot of head nodding and just like things that you remain on set. And when we moved to Colorado, I started going to a dad’s group just because I think community and supporting each other is important. And it was for neurotypical dads. And once we got the diagnosis and I started sages, what my landscape was felt really different than what the other dads were sharing. And so that’s gave me the, the impetus to just create it for dads in the similar challenges and their circumstances.

David Hirsch: Yeah, well, thanks for sharing. I admire the fact that, you Know, you’ve got this bandwidth.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: This extra energy.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: To not just be sort of hunkering down and trying to figure out, you know, what’s in the best interest of my family and, you know, sort of staying in the cave, if you will.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: like venturing out.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: And realizing, hey, you know, there’s other guys that are in their own caves and maybe we could lure them out with, ah, some food or a beverage.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: And, you know, maybe there’s benefit.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: To, the group individually and then as a group.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: To be, getting together and sharing fellowship.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: Not sort of in a spiritual way when I say fellowship, but just, you know, you have these common, interests. concerns.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: And, you know, guys are really bad at pulling over and asking for directions.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

Mark Reinfeld: Or when they get them, they don’t follow them.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: We want to figure things out on our own. And I joke about that being sort of like

00:50:00

David Hirsch: some level of testosterone poisoning.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: You know, the, the consequence is that, you know, we struggle.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: Unnecessarily. because, you know, we’re concerned about showing some vulnerability or admitting that we don’t have it all together.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Yeah.

David Hirsch: That’s societal.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: That’s not just us. Society, that is, I think, a global issue for a lot of men. And, anything we can do to break down the barriers, to open up the lines of communication, get guys sharing and, you know, making it more of a second nature type of experience that, you know, we’re in a much better place.

Mark Reinfeld: Yeah, I agree.

I’m wondering what advice you’d like to share with parents or specifically dads

David Hirsch: So I’m thinking about advice, and I’m wondering what advice, you’d like to share with parents or specifically dads. If you could say just one or two things, what would your advice be?

Mark Reinfeld: Thank you for asking that. I do want to just touch that on the book. The first part deals with, like, the hot spots that I mentioned. And then the second part are tools. And so that’s where I would say, like, the advice category fits in. And looking at, I would say, like one of them is community, I feel is really important. Like, just as much as people love you or care about you, if they’re not in at least like in my dad’s group where everyone has a different diagnosis, I’ll say, like, we all have a different landscape of challenges that what we’re dealing with. But all of us are, can agree that our idea of fatherhood has turned out to be quite different than what it actually is. And so community, I think, is a core and then another part of the Book talks about different ways of, self care. It’s like the. When they say on the plane to put your own mask on before you put it on your kids. Like, that idea of, like, we need to try to find ways that we could connect with our joy. And. And so things like movement or breathing exercises, whatever. Some guys, it’s woodworking, my happy places, bike rides and whatever that is, that you could capture those moments. And the whole idea of, like, the islands of peace is, like, identify moments where you’re having some sense of calm and that goes a long way and then work on expanding them.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: I love it. Thank you for sharing.

You’re a mentor father as part of the Special Fathers Network

So why is it you’ve agreed to be a mentor father as part of the Special Fathers Network?

Mark Reinfeld: Well, I am a mentor father for parent, to parent in Colorado. I love being there for other dads who may not have another person they could connect with. So you could put me on a list if there’s a list like that?

David Hirsch: Oh, no, I’ll differentiate. Just so that we’re on the same page. There’s about 900, 900 plus mentor fathers as part of the Special Fathers Network. They just have agreed to make themselves available to others who might have questions with a similar situation. So you’re definitely on the list. I mean, you’re okay.

Mark Reinfeld: I’d love to be. I would love to be on that list.

David Hirsch: Yeah. but I think what you were referring to with what Nathan was maybe talking with you about is the Mastermind group experience.

David Hirsch: Oh, okay.

David Hirsch: Right.

David Hirsch: Which is a weekly virtual experience. And then we get together. The smaller groups that are meeting all over the country get together once a year for, in person weekend retreat. And, by the time this episode airs, we’ll have already had our weekend, retreat for 20, 25. But it’s an opportunity to get together face to face, which is really important.

David Hirsch: Yeah.

David Hirsch: And these, events, because they’ve been taking place, annually in the fall, have turned out to be like reunions, m. Where you’re getting together with not only your group that you’re sort of. And weekly communication with by Zoom, but you’re getting to, you know, get together with the other groups, guys that, you know, maybe you only see once every couple months on this collective Zoom that we do when we’re reviewing the books that we review.

Mark Reinfeld: It helps bring meaning, I feel like when you could use your experience, and it helps you come out a little bit from your own challenges.

David Hirsch: Absolutely. Well, we’re thrilled to have you.

Mark Reinfeld: Thank you.

David: Mark is part of the Special Fathers Network mentoring program

David Hirsch: Is there anything else you’d like to say before we wrap up.

Mark Reinfeld: this has been great. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you and as I mentioned, I’m very inspired by the example you set with this group and your commitment to personal fitness and other things we talked about. So, I’m grateful for the connection.

David Hirsch: Yeah. Well, thank you. Let’s give a special shout out to our mutual friend Nathan Werner, who is one of the special Fathers Network mentor fathers as well as the leader of the Denver Special Fathers Network Mastermind group for helping connect us.

Mark Reinfeld: Amen.

David Hirsch: If somebody wants to learn more about your work as a chef, your books, or to contact you, what’s the best way to do so?

Mark Reinfeld: So for the the culinary side is vegan fusion.com as my website and I do virtual trainings and I love helping people become more confident and creative

00:55:00

Mark Reinfeld: in the plant based kitchen. And then for the this the new book and anything related to special needs parenting, it’s ohanavitality.org and o h a N a V I T A l I t y.org and ohana in my many years in Hawaii, one of the things that impacted me the most was this idea of ohana means family in Hawaiian. But it’s not your only your birth family. It’s more everyone’s like an auntie or an uncle and people are there to develop community and support each other. And it’s the idea of bringing, you know, aloha and connection and expanding it just beyond your blood family. That’s where the ohana part comes in.

David Hirsch: Well, thanks for sharing the backstory about that. I’ll be sure to include this and more, contact information in the show notes. It’ll make it as easy as possible for somebody to follow up with you.

Mark Reinfeld: Wonderful. Thank you Mark.

David Hirsch: Thank you for your time and many insights. As a reminder, Mark’s just one of the dads who’s part of the Special Fathers Network, a mentoring program for fathers raising a child with special needs. If you’d like to be a mentor father or are seeking advice from a mentor father with a similar situation to your own, Please go to 21st Century Dads.org Thank you for listening to the latest episode of the special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation with much as I did. As you probably know, the 21st Century Dads foundation is a 501 not for profit organization which means we need your help to keep our content free to all concerned. Would you please consider making a tech collectible contribution? I would really appreciate your support Mark, thanks again.

Mark Reinfeld: thank you, David. Thanks so much.

David Hirsch: And thank you for listening to the special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast. The Special Fathers Network is a dad to dad mentoring program for fathers raising children with special needs. Through our personalized matching process, new fathers with special needs children match up with mentor fathers in a similar situation. It’s a great way for dads to support other dads. To find out more, go to 21st.

David Hirsch: Centurydads.Org and if you’re a dad,

David Hirsch: Looking for help or would like to offer help, we would be honored to have you join our closed Facebook group. Please go to facebook.com groups and search dad to dad. Lastly, we’re always looking to share interesting stories. If you’d like to share your story or know of a compelling story, please send an email to david@21stCenturyDads.org the Special.

David Hirsch: Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast was produced by me, Tom Couch. Tune in again next week for another intriguing conversation on, the special Special Father’s Network Dad to Dad Podcast.

00:57:44

Tom Couch: And thank you for listening to the Special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast. The Special Fathers Network is a dad to dad mentoring program for fathers raising children with special needs. Through our personalized matching process, new fathers with special needs children match up with mentor fathers in a similar situation. It’s a great way for dads to support other dads. To find out more, go to 21stCenturyDads.org.

David Hirsch: And if you’re a dad looking for help or would like to offer help, we would be honored to have you join our closed Facebook group. Please go to facebook.com groups and search dad to dad. Lastly, we’re always looking to share interesting stories. If you’d like to share your story or know of a compelling story, please send an email to david@21stCenturyDads.org.

Tom Couch: The Special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast was produced by me, Tom Couch. Tune in again next week for another intriguing conversation on the Special Fathers Network Dad to Dad Podcast.